PTO Operation questions

[LachineMI]

Newbie question - this is my first time with a tractor, old or new. I am not a mechanic, but can read a manual and know which end of the hammer to use.

I purchased what I believe to be a 1963 Ford 2000 Industrial with a Ford 720 loader from an estate sale. Sadly I cannot ask the former owner any questions about the tractor. Yes, it came with a shop manual and I have done my best to use it.

When I purchased the tractor, it had not been running for several years. Found the distributor to be 180 degrees out, the rotor in the distributor rotor shattered, several ignition wires were hanging by a thread. Did a basic tune up (plugs and points) The float in the carb was leaking, so that was replaced, the carb cleaned and rebuilt (maybe correctly). It now starts right up and runs well which has me stoked. Lubed everything I could find. Checked/topped off the fluids, need to get a funnel so that I can change the oil (the loader makes everything hard to access). Got the implements sorted (snowblower, bushhog, box blade, front bucket, and snowplow. The tow company was nice enough to dump everything in a pile in the driveway....

Here is my main question. The PTO does not seem to be controlled by the clutch. If it is engaged, it is running. I have to have the tractor off to engage the PTO. Once I start the tractor, the PTO spins no matter what unless I disengage it. This does not seem right to me. I think the clutch should control the PTO. It appears to have a two stage clutch, maybe I have it hooked up wrong?

Less important questions:

1. Is this really a '63 (picture of what I think is the part number included). The color scheme indicates a different year?

2. The draft spring (not certain that is the name) is loose and the rear hydraulics don't seem to be able to lift the bushhog off the ground much (maybe 6 inches). The box blade comes up much farther. Is this normal or perhaps related to the draft?

3. What else do I need to know?


View attachment 131582

 

[shaun wallace]

Proably a 851 witch is a 5 speed trans with transmission pto. Post numbers on flat surface to rear of starter and we can tell you what you have.

 

[LachineMI]

Missed a few pictures.

Also, the proof meter works. Is it possible that this has 550 hours on it? Or did it roll over?

 

[KCM]

According to the stamped number on the transmission, you have a 1955 to 1957 860, not a 2000. But looking at the pictures, The transmission may have been swapped out. The fenders look like a later tractor. Does it have a solid, non-adjustable front end? If so, it likely is a 2000 industrial.

As for the PTO, in the picture showing where the clutch rod connects to the lever coming out of the transmission, you will see two holes on the end of the rod clevis. Take out the pin and attach the lever to the end of the rod instead. This will allow the PTO clutch to be disengaged when the pedal is pushed. The two holes allow only the transmission clutch to be disengaged (where it is now), or both the transmission and PTO clutch to be disengaged when the pedal is pressed all the way to the floorboard.

 

[LachineMI]

According to the stamped number on the transmission, you have a 1955 to 1957 860, not a 2000. But looking at the pictures, The transmission may have been swapped out. The fenders look like a later tractor. Does it have a solid, non-adjustable front end? If so, it likely is a 2000 industrial.

As for the PTO, in the picture showing where the clutch rod connects to the lever coming out of the transmission, you will see two holes on the end of the rod clevis. Take out the pin and attach the lever to the end of the rod instead. This will allow the PTO clutch to be disengaged when the pedal is pushed. The two holes allow only the transmission clutch to be disengaged (where it is now), or both the transmission and PTO clutch to be disengaged when the pedal is pressed all the way to the floorboard.

Not certain how to tell if the front end is adjustable.


I will try the other hole. Currently the PTO never disengages regardless of the position of the clutch. I have the clutch properly adjusted according to the manual. Meaning the free play and the engagement point are in the ballpark.

 

[john in la]

Based on the industry hood and what looks to be a solid front axle the buff color fenders I would guess you have a 1961/62 2000/4000 light industrial with a transmission out of a older 860.
Some on here can look at that rear end and tell you if it is a 2000 or a 4000.
The engine size is also different in the 2000 and 4000.

Your PTO clutch is not working because it looks like you have the clevis pin in the wrong hole. The clutch pedal should stand almost straight up for the PTO clutch to work.
You have the pin (from what I see in pictures) in the more leg relaxing front end loader work hole.

 

[LachineMI]

Based on the industry hood and what looks to be a solid front axle the buff color fenders I would guess you have a 1961/62 2000/4000 light industrial with a transmission out of a older 860.
Some on here can look at that rear end and tell you if it is a 2000 or a 4000.
The engine size is also different in the 2000 and 4000.

Your PTO clutch is not working because it looks like you have the clevis pin in the wrong hole. The clutch pedal should stand almost straight up for the PTO clutch to work.
You have the pin (from what I see in pictures) in the more leg relaxing front end loader work hole.

As soon as my next meeting ends, I will try moving the clevis pin. I hope it is that easy, then kick myself for not trying it before now.

 

[KCM]

Not certain how to tell if the front end is adjustable.

If the front axle is adjustable, it will consist of three cast pieces, one in the center and one attached to each end of the center section with two large bolts. There will be a series of holes in each part, allowing the wheel spacing to be changed based on which holes are used. An industrial tractor uses a one piece front axle and the wheel spacing cannot be changed.

Looking more at the photos, I think it is likely a 1962 2000 light industrial. 1963 and 1964 models had a different grill and front hood nose piece.

 

[TomIn]

Missed a few pictures.

Also, the proof meter works. Is it possible that this has 550 hours on it? Or did it roll over?





View attachment 131585View attachment 131596View attachment 131597View attachment 131593View attachment 131594View attachment 131595View attachment 131598View attachment 131600

It is unlikely that a tractor of that age has 550 hours. The bezel on the proof meter looks like clean black while the bezels on the other gauges look to have paint slopped on them. I would guess that the proof meter was replaced at some point. This site sells them for $37.

 

[LachineMI]

Your PTO clutch is not working because it looks like you have the clevis pin in the wrong hole. The clutch pedal should stand almost straight up for the PTO clutch to work.
You have the pin (from what I see in pictures) in the more leg relaxing front end loader work hole.

Tried the other (front hole). The clutch pedal was much lower that way and engaged at 30 degrees off the floor instead of 75 degrees. No change on the performance of the PTO. If the PTO is engaged, and the tractor is running, the PTO is turning.

It is unlikely that a tractor of that age has 550 hours. The bezel on the proof meter looks like clean black while the bezels on the other gauges look to have paint slopped on them. I would guess that the proof meter was replaced at some point. This site sells them for $37.

Good call on the proof meter. The tractor looks pretty used, way more than 550 hours..

If the front axle is adjustable, it will consist of three cast pieces, one in the center and one attached to each end of the center section with two large bolts. There will be a series of holes in each part, allowing the wheel spacing to be changed based on which holes are used. An industrial tractor uses a one piece front axle and the wheel spacing cannot be changed.

Looking more at the photos, I think it is likely a 1962 2000 light industrial. 1963 and 1964 models had a different grill and front hood nose piece.

 

[Sean in PA]

That is the non-adjustable front axle from the light industrial models, 2030, 2130, 4030 and 4130.

 

[john in la]

That is the solid front axle.
The serial numbers are hard to read in your first two pictures but it looks like you have a 1961 light industrial 2000 with a 1957 860 transmission.

Since moving the clevis pin moved the clutch pedal down you had it right to start with. The clutch pedal should stick almost straight up when at rest.
If the throw out bearing adjustment is right there is no external adjustment you can make to the PTO clutch. Chances are it is adjusted right and the clutch disc is rusted to the pressure plate from non use.
Hook the brush cutter to the tractor and engage the PTO. Ride around in an open field with the clutch pedal half way down and rev the motor from idle to full throttle and back to idle back and forth.
What this will do is let the centrifugal force of the brush cutter break the clutch disc a loose from pressure plate as you idle the edge down with the PTO clutch engaged.

 

[john in la]

I will add that I can see why some say this is a 1963 2000 because the serial number looks to be 15020. That fits a 1963.
But the 63 is blue and buff.
Your tractor is red and buff and that fits the 61 and 62 light industrial tractors.

I have heard of people painting their red tractor blue to make it look more modern but I have never seen anyone paint their blue tractor red to make it look older.

That is why I assume I am reading the serial number on the tag wrong.

 

[LachineMI]

I will add that I can see why some say this is a 1963 2000 because the serial number looks to be 15020. That fits a 1963.
But the 63 is blue and buff.
Your tractor is red and buff and that fits the 61 and 62 light industrial tractors.

I have heard of people painting their red tractor blue to make it look more modern but I have never seen anyone paint their blue tractor red to make it look older.

That is why I assume I am reading the serial number on the tag wrong.

I wish the serial number was more clear. I have also seen the red/buff being a '61 or '62 and I see no sign of blue anywhere, so unless it was completely stripped and repainted it is probably original.


The pictures are hard to read, but I read 14434 which also appears to make no sense. It is a 4 cyl gas engine.

If the transmission is swapped (860), would that change this entire conversation about the PTO operation?

I will ride around in a field and play with the clutch. Have family over for dinner, so it will have to wait for another day.

Thanks all for the info!

 

[KCM]

I had it backwards in my mind and told you wrong on the clutch pedal linkage. Stupid mistake on my part. Sorry about that. Been one of those days.

Live PTO design essentially the same from 1955 to 1964 on the 5 speed, so conversation stays the same. Ford went from a course spline input shaft to a fine spline around 1957/1958, so the shaft and clutch discs changed, but concept the same. Never tried it, but I would guess the input shafts could be swapped between the early and late tractors, so the earlier transmission could be used in a later transmission. Or the earlier model clutch discs were used.

Could be a stuck PTO disc like one poster stated. You might try taking all of the free play out of the clutch lever to get the most movement as you can and see if the PTO will disengage. It will only disengage when the pedal is all the way to the floor board. Pressing halfway down to the point when the tractor stops moving when in gear, the PTO will not disengage. Might also put a heavy load on the PTO and press the clutch. If the disc is stuck, that might break it loose.

The serial number stamped into the transmission will do you no good since the transmission was swapped. That would be the serial number of the tractor it came from. The serial number on the other tag does not look like a valid Ford number as it looks like it includes letters.

Definitely one piece front axle, so it likely is a 1961/1962 light industrial. Another thing that points to those years is the color. In 1963, Ford colors went to blue body and gray sheet metal, or in this case, blue and cream for the industrial. Before that was red body and gray sheet metal, or red and cream for the industrial. I did see a Ford brochure online that showed the light industrial model as being called a 2000 in 1961/1962, although the ag tractors didn't use the 1000 designation until 1963. The brochure shows red and cream.

 

[john in la]

KCM is not the only one having a backwards in my mind day.
I told you to ride around with the clutch half down.
That is wrong as KCM is right.
Halfway down stops motion of the tractor but does nothing to the PTO clutch.

That is definitely a transmission out of a 860.
You can see the 860 model number stamped into it above the serial number.
14434 would make it from a 1955 tractor.
Since the drive line spline is different in 1955 to 1962 you may also have the rear-end from the 860.
Now that opens the fact of what engine do you really have.
If it is the bigger 172 I'm thinking you might have a 860 tractor with tin and front axle off a 2000 industrial.
That would also fit in why you have a 1963 blue and buff serial number on a red tractor especially now that I notice you do not have the egg crate grill used in 61 and 62.

All the dual clutch tractors of that era 860 861 2000 4000 all used the same type clutch

 

[pomester]

KCM is not the only one having a backwards in my mind day.
I told you to ride around with the clutch half down.
That is wrong as KCM is right.
Halfway down stops motion of the tractor but does nothing to the PTO clutch.

That is definitely a transmission out of a 860.
You can see the 860 model number stamped into it above the serial number.
14434 would make it from a 1955 tractor.
Since the drive line spline is different in 1955 to 1962 you may also have the rear-end from the 860.
Now that opens the fact of what engine do you really have.
If it is the bigger 172 I'm thinking you might have a 860 tractor with tin and front axle off a 2000 industrial.
That would also fit in why you have a 1963 blue and buff serial number on a red tractor especially now that I notice you do not have the egg crate grill used in 61 and 62.

All the dual clutch tractors of that era 860 861 2000 4000 all used the same type clutch

Looks like the late rear end to me. The center section shows 'ribs', reinforcements to the casting used in the later tractors and missing on the early.

the drawbar hanger bracket appears to have the deep drop of the 8XX and 4000 series tractors, the 6XX and 2000 hanger is shorter.

 

[LachineMI]

Love the information and the feedback. I am very happy that the tractor should be able to do everything I need it to (light mowing, keeping the 1/2 mile gravel driveway smooth, and blowing snow in the winter. I am not going to restore it (but may hit it with some de-greaser...)

I agree the parts on the frankenford don't seem to all match! Should make getting parts more interesting.

How do I tell if the engine is from the 2000 or an 860?

What does the rear lever on the transmission do? Mine is not hooked to anything and moves freely, but I do see pictures of 860s with something attached to it.

This is not my tractor, but is labeled as an 800/860 by the OP and something appears to be hooked to this.

Anyhow, my original question remains.... Should I be able to push in the clutch and have the PTO stop? Do I care of it doesn't?

Thanks for all the great information. Very helpful and interesting.

 

[Btzj02]

Love the information and the feedback. I am very happy that the tractor should be able to do everything I need it to (light mowing, keeping the 1/2 mile gravel driveway smooth, and blowing snow in the winter. I am not going to restore it (but may hit it with some de-greaser...)

I agree the parts on the frankenford don't seem to all match! Should make getting parts more interesting.

How do I tell if the engine is from the 2000 or an 860?

What does the rear lever on the transmission do? Mine is not hooked to anything and moves freely, but I do see pictures of 860s with something attached to it.View attachment 131693

This is not my tractor, but is labeled as an 800/860 by the OP and something appears to be hooked to this.View attachment 131695View attachment 131694

Anyhow, my original question remains.... Should I be able to push in the clutch and have the PTO stop? Do I care of it doesn't?

Thanks for all the great information. Very helpful and interesting.

Left brake linkage. If you have a different rear end the break linkage may go below the hydraulic resevoir and this old linkage may be abandoned?

 

[Sean in PA]

As for the engine, look at the large casting numbers on the block. Here's a list of casting codes for those 4 cylinder engines and whether they are 134, 144 or 172 cubic inches, and the years they were made. 172 ci is a gas or diesel for the 8xx/4000 series, 134 is 6xx/2000 series gas engines and 144 ci is 6xx/2000 series diesel engines:

EAE 6015 - 134 1953-1957
EAF 6015 - 172 1953-1957
310905 - 134 1958-1959
310609 - 172 1958-1959
B9NN-6015C - 134 late 1959 early 1960
B9NN-6015A - 144D late 1959 early 1960
B9NN6015J - 172 late 1959 early 1960
B9NN6015B - 172D late 1959 early 1960
C0NN-6015G - 134 sleeveless late 1962-1964
C0NN-6015H - 144D late 1960-1964
C0NN-6015C - 172D-G late 1960-1964
C0NN-6015J - 172 late 1960-1964