Shat changed??? (Long)

Goose

Well-known Member
I wrote the following piece several years ago after a school shooting. I just updated the years.

When I was a Junior in high school in 1951, the Senior class used a fully functional, however obviously unloaded, .45 caliber semi-automatic pistol as a prop in a class play?and no one gave it a second thought. It was simply an inanimate object necessary to the plot of the play.

Yet mass shootings were virtually unheard of.

So, what has changed?

Sixty seven years ago, most all children in the United States, regardless of skin color, were raised in a functional, two parent family by parents who looked at their role as parents as a serious lifelong commitment and responsibility, not as an inconvenience to be shunted off onto someone else.

Sixty seven years ago, divorce was obtainable only in the most dire situations, and the divorcees were viewed by society as failures because they had failed to honor the sacred oaths they took at the altar when they were wed. Nowadays, a divorce is as easy to obtain as a loaf of bread, with no stigma attached, regardless of the psychological aftermath to the children involved.

Sixty seven years ago, any woman who had a child out of wedlock was an outcast and was ostracized by her peers. The woman was considered ?damaged goods? and forever after unmarriageable. Therefore, women avoided having children out of wedlock at all costs. Nowadays, half the babies in this country are born out of wedlock and nobody gives it a thought.

Sixty seven years ago, it was unthinkable for a man and a woman to live together without the benefit of marriage, and if it occurred it was referred to derogatorily as ?shacking up?. Nowadays, it?s so commonplace as to become the rule rather than the exception.

Sixty seven years ago, there were no Politically Correct child psychologists shielding children from failure. If a child failed a grade in school, they unceremoniously repeated the entire grade until they passed. Children grew up learning to overcome failures and learned that failure is a part of life. Nowadays, psychologists refuse to let a child fail. Then when a child grows up and finds failure actually is a reality of life, they can?t handle it.

Sixty seven years ago, attaining adulthood, whatever your educational level, was a serious rite of passage that included obtaining a meaningful job and becoming a contributing member of society. Nowadays, in too many cases if someone does not hand a young adult a job on a platter, they simply withdraw, watch TV, and play video games all day. (And night). And their parents, if they have any functional ones, let them get away with it.

Sixty seven years ago, welfare existed for only the most dire situations. People worked at whatever work was available, no matter how menial, if they expected to eat. And at any level, they took pride in doing a job well. As long as people could scrape by, using any means at hand, personal pride kept them from accepting welfare. Nowadays, there?s an entire sub-culture in America that considers welfare an entitlement.

Sixty seven years ago, or even fifty, video games did not exist to numb one?s mind to violence and actually glorify violence. Entertainment was wholesome and was not based on the denigration of societal mores. Comedians knew how to be funny without resorting to crude and offensive language. Nowadays, it seems no stand-up comic can be considered funny if his or her routine is not a steady barrage of four letter words and comments on bodily functions. And nothing is simply entertainment anymore. Everything has to have a political agenda injected.

Sixty seven years ago, we didn?t have TV media going on a 24 hour obsessive blitz giving nut jobs the publicity they craved, repeating the same items over and over and over all day and night. The perpetrators nowadays know they will obtain the notoriety in death that they craved and were unable to receive by legitimate means in life.

So what happened? We?ve engendered several generations, parents as well as offspring, who are simply adrift with no real concept of social mores or responsibility, responsibility to society as well as to family and children.

Ladies and gentlemen, we do not have a gun problem in the United States, we have a societal problem of monstrous proportions. And the trend that has evolved over the last sixty seven years or so needs to be reversed. Guns are simply a convenient scapegoat to allow people to avoid responsibility for their own actions in allowing our once great society to deteriorate to its current level of moral decay. I don?t consider myself a moralist, but enough is enough!

In seeking a solution, many, many people need look no farther than the mirror. To reiterate an old clich?, guns don?t kill people, people kill people.
 
I agree totally with what you say......but it is a fact that many societies, our Canadian one in particular, are mirrors of the US way of life,(heck, we even drive the same kinds of tractors!) but don't seem to have shootings to the same extent. If we could narrow in on the reasons for the problems, maybe we could find a solution. No quick or easy fix for this one.
Ben
 
No quick or easy fix for this one.

That's for sure. My mind has been wandering to the old country on these long winter days and how different society is there. There's a Swedish saying,"There are people on the other side of the mountain.".

What's that mean? To me it means that the world doesn't revolve around you and that other people have the same desires and deserve the same quality of life you have. Maybe it's just because they're a more homogenous society. Whether or not you would want to live the way they do,they don't seem to have the degree of political and racial divide that we have,so they have more respect for each other.

Kinda goes along with the original post. Used to be that communities were formed around immigrants from one certain area. The German communities,the Scandanavian communities etc. Everybody had the same heritage,the local economy revolved around one certain industry......people just cared more because they were equal. Now,with a more mobile society,we have a more diverse society and the friction causes some major fires to break out more and more often. Just the different opinions of what causes these events throws gasoline on the flames.

Makes me want to go back to Sweden or burry myself totally in the Mennonite community and completely ignore the rest of the world.
 
I'd have to agree with what you say Ben, our Canadian society is very much like our southern neighbors with all of the points that Goose makes, and that applies to not only Canada but all/most developed nations. Maybe some explanations/reasons come to the surface if one takes five minutes and reads the link below. Of course, it might be fake news, that's always an easy way to deny facts, but I don't think anyone fabricated these statistics. And I know it might not be something that many YT'ers want to read but here it is. Meanwhile, only one other poster in all of this discussion over the past day mentioned anything relating to sympathy and thought for the victims, their families, neighbors, and friends. Really, those are the ones we (including myself) should be thinking about. I can't imagine what these people are going through, a tragic day for everyone.
Untitled URL Link
 
I don t know the answer Goose. I do know if kids today were raised and disiplined like I was and our 2 girls were things would be different. Parents need their heads worked first. I ll shut up. RB
 
Every time I see you post this I'm amazed at how easy it really is to bend things around to fit someone's agenda.

In this case the biggest thing that was missed was the change of laws and regarding mental health and the closing of many facilities across the country.

Europe has mass shootings. Most often carried out by terrorist in possession of totally illegal firearms. That proves that someone can get the guns if they want. THey have been much more open to single parent families too for many more decade than it's been acceptable here in the US. But they didn't give people with proven mental health issues a free pass. Don't believe me?

Adam Lanza, Sandy Hook, Mother was unsuccessfully trying to get committed before he spree.

Seung-Hui Cho, VA Tech, mental health professional judged him to be a danger to himself and others before his spree.

James Holmes, Arora CO. He too was found to be a danger to himself and other prior to his spree but because of the current laws and to potential of being sued his doctor had not yet reported him.

Or what about the Christian married mom of six who killed her children?

Our politicians shut down federal money for mental health in an effort to reduce the budget years ago. None have been willing to suggest that something needs to change. This occurred BEFORE we had a homless problem too.......

Rick
 

In the most recent incident, where were ALL the teachers and administrators? Have they forgotten that along with teaching, they also are ultimately responsible for the safety and well being of the students?

Where were the security cameras? Why was that psychopath allowed to just walk into the school carrying a rifle in a case?
 
I struggled for a while on how to put this most effectively. My belief is that a lot of this began when it became OK to terminate a LIFE because it was an inconvenience, and once ALL life stopped being sacred it follows that NO life remains sacred.
 

What Changed?

We do more to "hide" punishment behind concrete walls.

Bring back punishment in the town square both minor and capital punishment.

The threat of public embarrassment is the very first tool in maintaining a civil society.
 
Like every developed country,they have an immigrant problem and the problem of them living in relative poverty because they are willing to work cheap,but they're concentrated in certain areas. Overall,they're still a society of proud,humble and united people. All you have for your argument is statistics.
 
Iam going to add this, my son has no video games and what not at home,doesnt watch tv unless its goldrush or football. But yet he comes home every now and then say stuff we don't allow. Hes the only kid out of 66 with a farm background. I really don't know how to say it ,but we are doomed as its hard for one kid to fit in with others, frustrating he comes home and almost has to eat a bar of soap. What other kids talk like Fustrating on what kids get away with. My 2 cents..
 
I don't think you are paying attention. Anything that a person would traditionally be embarrassed about is now labeled as a "preference" or a "condition". We are coming dangerously close to making child molestation a "preference" and looking the other way. That is how bad it is getting. In these school incidents people want to blame the gun, not the person. If they do blame a person it will always be a person in authority, not the shooter.
 
"deserve the same quality of life you have"

the problem with this statement is, people believe it, but don't think they need to work for the quality of life you and I have.

no one deserves a quality of life more than they are willing to give. Opportunity yes, but work for it.
 
[i:277fb98d9c]sorry so long:[/i:277fb98d9c]

Goose, nice write-up. I've been harping on the influences of TV and video games since the 80's, before school shootings were a problem. I could see the changes that these influences were having on the portion of society that were using them. I remember one time walking through the living room, Mom would be sitting there watching TV and saying how "that shouldn't be allowed on TV". I turned to see what she was talking about. About a year later nearly the same thing happened. Only this time, when I turned to look, I noticed that what she was griping about was actually worse than what it was the previous year -- and she no longer said a word about the things that she WAS griping about the year earlier. As I walked away, couldn't help but wonder what had changed in that time; why something that was so bad last year was suddenly accepted. The short answer was, it wasn't "accepted" initially; it was "tolerated". She refused to simply change the channel or turn it off, and she also didn't gripe any more than she previously did, but only at the worst-of-the-worst. It was then that I started paying attention to the world around me and noticing that same change in nearly every aspect of life.

Then there's another point that would help explain the shootings, and that is how years ago, we were taught that it's wrong to kill; that there's only TWO reasons why we should ever kill. One is to eat, the other is in war, and we should always pray there is no war. How many parents teach that today? How many schools? How many churches? (some still will, but some are afraid to mention such things!)

Used to be when you bought something, there were few, if any, warning labels on them. Yes, more people got hurt from careless mistakes, but they learned from their mistakes. Now, there's warning placards up everywhere. Buying a new power tool? The owner's manual has literally PAGES of warning and safety placards in it! ...But how much of that is common sense? How much of that is taught to young people these days?

And finally, the progression of mankind. Think back to the earliest days of America. Yes, there were some awful bad folks back then as well, and life was more about survival than anything else. A few decades ago it was more about getting ahead than survival. Now, it's about making the most of your time; chasing away the boredom and chasing after what thrills you, whether that be death-defying thrills or whatever sick & twisted thoughts that can be cultured when there is more time in the day than things to do to survive. An idle mind truly is the Devil's playground.

Obviously there's still much more than this, but I believe these are the primary things. Most of all, it's just the progressive cycle of human life given its current conditions. The more we allow, the more we accept. The more we experience, the more we want to push the limits. It's an endless cycle. And no, it has nothing to do with left or right -- the problem is universal. TV, internet and video games have only sped up the natural process.
 
Sweden is out numbered in there own country by thjrd world ga4bage. Tyeir own political. Wellfair system pays for ev?ything and those people. Do not want to blend nto society at all. Just hand me my check. Ninty million Sweads and over 11 million tird world crap.
 
One difference between Canadian society and US society. In the US we have a large private organization that sends money to folks in elected positions. Like fifty -five million in one year. I don't think Canada has this organization in their country. So if your views or ideas for change to stop these terrible shooting events don't align with this private organization goals or ideas you can not change anything from the status quo. So say you wonder a why mentally ill or person has unfettered access to purchase a weapon it does not matter because you can't go against this private organizations influence with the amount of money they have and give out to powerful people. There are many other facets to this problem but that is a difference between our two counties.
 
rrlund ... you write, "... What's that mean? To me it means that the world doesn't revolve around you and that other people have the same desires and deserve the same quality of life you have. Maybe it's just because they're a more homogenous society. Whether or not you would want to live the way they do,they don't seem to have the degree of political and racial divide that we have,so they have more respect for each other. "

You whole posting was well thought out and stated, but this paragraph really says a lot IMHO. I especially appreciate the sentiment shown in the last sentence, "... they don't seem to have the degree of political and racial divide that we have, so they have more respect for each other."

I THANK YOU for your considered thoughts and comments here.

Rick
 
So people already ridiculed by society that care little about
dying during their shooting spree are going to somehow be
concerned with public shaming...
 
True enough. That's where the racial and political divide make Americans different though. The "pursuit of happiness" is one of the main building blocks of our whole reason to exist as a country,but how many of us are tolerant of the people we don't see and interact with every day though? Because of the things that divide us,socialism on a federal level won't be accepted here,we're too diverse for that. It works for them because of their unity. It works here in different communities that tend to keep to themselves. The Amish and Mennonites would be prime examples who most of us on here can relate to. They're as socialist and self contained as the modern world will let them be economically,but as a community,they're pretty much totally self contained socially.

If you want to go off in the direction of what we'll tolerate,think about this. They speak their own language among themselves,both at home and out in public when they're conversing with each other. Do we get angry about that when we hear them speaking to one another at an auction or something? Not really. What is the reaction to people speaking Spanish to each other though? "SPEAK ENGLISH!"? I'll bet that's the first thought of 90% of the folks on here. Why is that? Is it because of the racism that's drummed up among us every day? I believe it is. I don't see the difference between the two scenarios,but in American society,there is a difference and it's just accepted that way.
 
They get health care if they have a visa,but they aren't paid to sit and do nothing. Their biggest immigrant problem is people from Poland and Estonia. They come there poor as church mice and will work for practically nothing.

The problem you get in to with just throwing out crime statistics is that they don't tell you what the crimes are. If it's just a crime to be there without a visa,and they get caught,then they broke the law and that's a "crime statistic". If you want to say the crime rate is sky rocketing and want it to mean anything,you have to break it down by what the crimes are,where they're occurring and who's committing those crimes.

I could say that the motor vehicle death rate among the Mennonites around here over the last few years is staggeringly higher than that of the non Mennonites. What does that say at first glance? It looks like those Mennonites must be terrible drivers doesn't it? Trouble is,they don't drive. They're being killed off left and right by drivers who aren't Mennonite.
 
I think the reason if they speak German, which I do, different than Spanish is that to a lot of people the German work there buts off mentality and the Spanish we think of criminals or just here for the free ride. At least that?s what we see in Manitoba. Jails are full of 1 color of people and there not German speaking Amish
 
Exactly right Goose! I graduated from high school in 1952 and having "been there" and being able to observe what's gone on in our country since then I believe you've covered our moral and social demise quite well. The present problem is I fear a majority of our modern population refuse to recognize or accept what's gone wrong in our country and so doing anything really substantial about it is very unlikely. The modern thinking of our people is concentrated on the 3 M's....money, materialism, and me.......Not God, not The responsibilities of true freedom, not justice, not morals, and certainly not social behavior.
 
Where I grew up, there were publicly funded institutions to care for the sick and indigent. Those closed due to budgets. The homeless and sick
were sent out to a life they weren?t prepared for.
 
When something like this happens and someone asks me what's the world coming to I tell them the end read the last chapter of the book! I'm not a religious fanatic but I believe in the Bible and God. I for one don't think things will ever get much better but as time has pointed out only get worse. All of you had things to say about this that is totally correct. I think all we can do today is prepare the best we can to survive what may come. I try to teach my grandchildren(which me and my wife did and are raising) to do the right thing and be prepared. So far they are turning out alright.
 
(quoted from post at 08:36:46 02/16/18) [i:a08024a078]sorry so long:[/i:a08024a078]

Goose, nice write-up. I've been harping on the influences of TV and video games since the 80's, before school shootings were a problem. I could see the changes that these influences were having on the portion of society that were using them. I remember one time walking through the living room, Mom would be sitting there watching TV and saying how "that shouldn't be allowed on TV". I turned to see what she was talking about. About a year later nearly the same thing happened. Only this time, when I turned to look, I noticed that what she was griping about was actually worse than what it was the previous year -- and she no longer said a word about the things that she WAS griping about the year earlier. As I walked away, couldn't help but wonder what had changed in that time; why something that was so bad last year was suddenly accepted. The short answer was, it wasn't "accepted" initially; it was "tolerated". She refused to simply change the channel or turn it off, and she also didn't gripe any more than she previously did, but only at the worst-of-the-worst. It was then that I started paying attention to the world around me and noticing that same change in nearly every aspect of life.

Then there's another point that would help explain the shootings, and that is how years ago, we were taught that it's wrong to kill; that there's only TWO reasons why we should ever kill. One is to eat, the other is in war, and we should always pray there is no war. How many parents teach that today? How many schools? How many churches? (some still will, but some are afraid to mention such things!)

Used to be when you bought something, there were few, if any, warning labels on them. Yes, more people got hurt from careless mistakes, but they learned from their mistakes. Now, there's warning placards up everywhere. Buying a new power tool? The owner's manual has literally PAGES of warning and safety placards in it! ...But how much of that is common sense? How much of that is taught to young people these days?

And finally, the progression of mankind. Think back to the earliest days of America. Yes, there were some awful bad folks back then as well, and life was more about survival than anything else. A few decades ago it was more about getting ahead than survival. Now, it's about making the most of your time; chasing away the boredom and chasing after what thrills you, whether that be death-defying thrills or whatever sick & twisted thoughts that can be cultured when there is more time in the day than things to do to survive. An idle mind truly is the Devil's playground.

Obviously there's still much more than this, but I believe these are the primary things. Most of all, it's just the progressive cycle of human life given its current conditions. The more we allow, the more we accept. The more we experience, the more we want to push the limits. It's an endless cycle. And no, it has nothing to do with left or right -- the problem is universal. TV, internet and video games have only sped up the natural process.

KCM do a little historical reading. First known school shooting in the US occurred in 1764. I'm not sure but I think that you can discount TV and video games as being the blame :shock: :lol: OK fast forward, read about Bath Mi. Granted was a bombing but the kids were just as dead. I don't think TV or Video games were responsible there either. Happened in 1927. In all the mass killings I could find only the 1764 attack can't be tied to someone with severe mental health issues. The 1764 attack was an indian attack.

Now fast forward to the 60's. Reports of patient abuse a mental hospitals started making the news. Then some people started yelling about patient rights. How a patient should not be able to be incarcerated without a judge making that decision and then only if the person could be classed as a danger to themselves and others. Then along comes the Carter Reagan recession. And both sides were all to willing to toss people who really did need help under the bus. Ever sense these changes took place the number of mass killings have gone up.

I darn sure don't have all the answers. But we can't fix a problem unless we have provable facts that can be addressed. Prove to me that every mass killing in the US sense TV came out is linked to TV we can address it. Prove that all Mass murderers played the same violent video games prior to their killing sprees and we can address that issue too. You can go back and look at the investigations of the killers that will show that most if not all had bad mental health problems.

Rick
 
Exactly Duke, short of widespread revival in our country, and world wide, we are rapidly approaching the point of no return.

2 Timothy 3:1-5
3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God? 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

God has a breaking point, and a plan...
 
Goose,
That is exactly what has gone wrong with society today. Since this last school shooting, I have gotten sick and tired of the media looking for ways to prevent another from occurring. "how can we stop this", they ask? Well you sir hit the nail on the head.
 
Ya,so it's just perception then. If a group of law abiding migrant workers are speaking Spanish among themselves while they're picking apples or after hours,it sparks a gut feeling in us that they're doing something wrong or that at the very least,they shouldn't be doing it.

We have two friends from Denmark who come here every year to hunt deer. The first time they came,they wanted to go to Grand Rapids to see an American shopping mall,so my nephew took them. They had spend three or four hundred dollars each on American clothing to take home to their wives and kids and were walking side by side speaking Danish to each other,not to be rude or because they had anything to hide,but just because it's their first language and it's easier and comes natural to them. A woman walking behind them who had no business sticking her nose in to their conversation said "Speak English you f@#%ing foreigners!". I've never been so ashamed of being an American in my life as I was when I heard about that. Totally uncalled for!
 
I think one point you missed is how familiar people used to be with death. Sixty seven years ago, many babies died shortly after birth, many mothers died, men were killed in work accidents, people just didn't live as long... Sixty seven years ago people still had vivid memories of not one but two "Wars to end all War". The general public was much more aware of the preciousness of life.

Today, eveyone in wrapped in a layer of bubble wrap from the time they are born. Safety at all costs, any sort of risk taking is discouraged, all pain is to be avoided. These nut jobs don't understand what it is like to have pain and suffering. All they know is pushing the reset button makes everything better.
 
Ken, that is part of the issue I think. Perhaps if the drugstore cowboys and assorted accompanying goat ropers hadn't glamourized the "damned" things so much we wouldn't be at this spot. I sure hope that the gun mfgs, that use the NRA as their lobby don't get itchy about selling grenades. gm
 
Since I don't have a bible at home Danny, can you briefly tell me what the last chapter in the book says? I'm serious and am not making light of your post. I don't even know what the last chapter is let alone its message.
 

I agree about the effect of TV. TV was a major contributor to the degeneration of society. People saw a vast array of things that they did not even know about, and in a few years they came to NEED these things.


In order to get these things mom had to go to work resulting in a great reduction in parenting, which of course resulted in a greater degeneration.


As parents sought answers to problems with child rearing, two major psychological answers became popular.


The first was OUTLAWING CORPORAL PUNISHMENT. Spare the rod-spoil the child, many children were spoiled, and many many children were raised with no concern for consequences for bad behavior. Now with parents no longer able to discipline their kids it by default goes to the law enforcement and judicial system. What a surprise!


Soon after, another attempt to correct problems with children's behavior came along. It is the SELF ESTEEM movement. Now instead of everyone esteeming others better than themselves as the Bible tells us, and as we all really prefer, all the little Janes and Johnnies who are taught that they are the best, go to school and are not treated as their parents tell them that they should be treated. And we wonder why kids act out in worse and worse ways.


The solution is to REQUIRE PARENTS to DISCIPLINE THEIR KIDS
with consequences for both the offending kids AND parents. Eliminate the prosecution of parents who are simply performing the correct and needed discipline of their kids. In a very short time the need for law enforcement intervention in child abuse claims would be a tiny fraction of the current needs for law enforcement intervention in all of the various criminal activities of the young people.
 
I agree , but I was taught that you talk English in public so no one thinks your hiding something or talking about them.
 
Rightly said. I think a lot happened to kids when teachers lost control of the class room. If I had got wacked at school by a teacher, and gone home and told my Dad, there is a good chance I would get it again. Don't know about your schools, in the 50's teachers had complete control of our class room. High school loosened up some in the 60's, but most kids behaved. Stan


.
 
(quoted from post at 11:40:21 02/16/18) Rightly said. I think a lot happened to kids when teachers lost control of the class room. If I had got wacked at school by a teacher, and gone home and told my Dad, there is a good chance I would get it again. Don't know about your schools, in the 50's teachers had complete control of our class room. High school loosened up some in the 60's, but most kids behaved. Stan


.

So true! Discipline at school was not a concern. It was what I would get when my father got home. And I still have the jagged front teeth to prove it, LOL.
 
(quoted from post at 11:13:56 02/16/18) Since I don't have a bible at home Danny, can you briefly tell me what the last chapter in the book says? I'm serious and am not making light of your post. I don't even know what the last chapter is let alone its message.

The last book in the Bible is Revelations. It is very difficult to understand and complex prophecy about the future and the end of the world.

Those that propose to have it all figured out are charlatans.

I always have to return to what Jesus said about the end of time: No man knoweth the hour except the Father.
 
I believe the mass shootings we have seen are based on mental illness untreated, and on the psychiartrist's belief that they can treat it.

The source of mental illness is all tied up in the various things mentioned: lack of direction/discipline, no moral teaching, etc. The exacerbation of the results of mental illness is tied closely to the rights afforded those who cannot care for themselves.

I'm a gun owner but cannot fathom why background checks should not be rigorous and binding. Criminals can always get guns but disturbed kids have a tougher time of it unless they have a sympathetic helper like the Sandy Hook murderer's mom.

There was a guy ratted out by his grandmother in Seattle. Was he a risk? If you go ballistic and vent steam should you be locked up for life? Can we not distinguish between mentally ill and angry people?
 
I am relieved to find out that this and other shootings have nothing to do with guns.

I wonder why other countries with divorce, unwed mothers, video games, TV, immigrants, psychologists, welfare, unmarried couples, etc. are so much more successful at preventing shootings like this.
 
First, for those of us who want to look back and ask why things are not like they used to be, I suspect that life may have not been so full of good memories for a large part of the folks who lived in poverty, from the inner cities to the sharecroppers in most rural areas, for much of the last century. And not to start a gun debate, but had a young man wanted to murder people when I was a boy, he would not have had the choice of weapons available now. I also take issue with folks who contend that being a Christian is a sure way to avoid violent behavior, since Christians have been murdering each other with glee from about the time it really took off as belief system. The Engish Civil War of the 1640's comes to mind as a shining example. And as far as mental health goes, our newest ceo of the white house recently signed legislation to ease restrictions on mentally ill gun purchasers, and really, how much of a security force would we need to track every nut that might become violent at some point.
 
(quoted from post at 10:36:09 02/16/18)
(quoted from post at 08:36:46 02/16/18) [i:9640000f43]sorry so long:[/i:9640000f43]

Goose, nice write-up. I've been harping on the influences of TV and video games since the 80's, before school shootings were a problem. I could see the changes that these influences were having on the portion of society that were using them. I remember one time walking through the living room, Mom would be sitting there watching TV and saying how "that shouldn't be allowed on TV". I turned to see what she was talking about. About a year later nearly the same thing happened. Only this time, when I turned to look, I noticed that what she was griping about was actually worse than what it was the previous year -- and she no longer said a word about the things that she WAS griping about the year earlier. As I walked away, couldn't help but wonder what had changed in that time; why something that was so bad last year was suddenly accepted. The short answer was, it wasn't "accepted" initially; it was "tolerated". She refused to simply change the channel or turn it off, and she also didn't gripe any more than she previously did, but only at the worst-of-the-worst. It was then that I started paying attention to the world around me and noticing that same change in nearly every aspect of life.

Then there's another point that would help explain the shootings, and that is how years ago, we were taught that it's wrong to kill; that there's only TWO reasons why we should ever kill. One is to eat, the other is in war, and we should always pray there is no war. How many parents teach that today? How many schools? How many churches? (some still will, but some are afraid to mention such things!)

Used to be when you bought something, there were few, if any, warning labels on them. Yes, more people got hurt from careless mistakes, but they learned from their mistakes. Now, there's warning placards up everywhere. Buying a new power tool? The owner's manual has literally PAGES of warning and safety placards in it! ...But how much of that is common sense? How much of that is taught to young people these days?

And finally, the progression of mankind. Think back to the earliest days of America. Yes, there were some awful bad folks back then as well, and life was more about survival than anything else. A few decades ago it was more about getting ahead than survival. Now, it's about making the most of your time; chasing away the boredom and chasing after what thrills you, whether that be death-defying thrills or whatever sick & twisted thoughts that can be cultured when there is more time in the day than things to do to survive. An idle mind truly is the Devil's playground.

Obviously there's still much more than this, but I believe these are the primary things. Most of all, it's just the progressive cycle of human life given its current conditions. The more we allow, the more we accept. The more we experience, the more we want to push the limits. It's an endless cycle. And no, it has nothing to do with left or right -- the problem is universal. TV, internet and video games have only sped up the natural process.

KCM do a little historical reading. First known school shooting in the US occurred in 1764. I'm not sure but I think that you can discount TV and video games as being the blame :shock: :lol: OK fast forward, read about Bath Mi. Granted was a bombing but the kids were just as dead. I don't think TV or Video games were responsible there either. Happened in 1927. In all the mass killings I could find only the 1764 attack can't be tied to someone with severe mental health issues. The 1764 attack was an indian attack.

Now fast forward to the 60's. Reports of patient abuse a mental hospitals started making the news. Then some people started yelling about patient rights. How a patient should not be able to be incarcerated without a judge making that decision and then only if the person could be classed as a danger to themselves and others. Then along comes the Carter Reagan recession. And both sides were all to willing to toss people who really did need help under the bus. Ever sense these changes took place the number of mass killings have gone up.

I darn sure don't have all the answers. But we can't fix a problem unless we have provable facts that can be addressed. Prove to me that every mass killing in the US sense TV came out is linked to TV we can address it. Prove that all Mass murderers played the same violent video games prior to their killing sprees and we can address that issue too. You can go back and look at the investigations of the killers that will show that most if not all had bad mental health problems.

Rick

Rick...hmm...usually we're on the same wavelength pretty much. I ask you again to read my last paragraph.

Most of the progression of the "disease" now is spurred on by our current societal mannerisms. Internet, TV and video games goes to SPEED UP those mannerisms. Never said it started them.

There's been good and evil around since the Garden of Eden. If two people can't abide by only one rule, then how can we expect the whole of mankind to abide by its rules? With literally billions of people around, with so many influences so readily available.....not a good recipe. There's gonna be some roaches get in the cookie dough now and then!
 
The only time it ever bothered me was when two Dutch guys came here to look at some heifers I had for sale. They spoke English to me when they got here,but when they were looking at them,they spoke Dutch to each other. At the end of it all,they said they didn't want them. It would have been nice to know just what it was that they were seeing that they didn't like.
 
What makes you think firearms are illegal over there? Handguns maybe,but rifles and even silencers are totally legal in some European countries..
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Paul ....... I like your post, one that makes sense in this series of posts. I am always amazed how the topic of guns and gun control seems to be a "do not discuss" area in discussions like this. The old argument that "people kill people, guns don't kill people" of course is a ridiculous argument. Surely, too many guns and the easy access to guns must have something to do with these tragedies when as you say, other developed countries have essentially the same cultural issues. I suspect that trying to get anything to work in the USA is almost too late since the problem is so far gone and part of the culture. It would be like trying to get hold of the issue of hand held devices that seem to have taken over people's minds in their waking hours. There is no going back it seems.
 
I would like to address this one to you, Randy.
Long ago, when I heard folks speaking a different language, I knew that they were hiding something. My grandparents would use the language of the "old" country so that us kids would not know what they were talking about.

Later on, when I heard folks speaking Spanish, I did wonder what they were talking about. I wondered if they were talking about me, mocking me, or if they were talking about ordinary things. So, I started learning Spanish on my own. I studied Spanish teaching texts. I learned enough to finally start knowing what they were all talking about. Turned out to be surprisingly ordinary.

BUT, in all fairness, there is no racial component in Spanish speaking people. They are pretty much descended from the same European folks as the rest of us. Look again. Spain and Portugal are right next to France and Germany. Island nations and territories like Cuba, Puerto Rico, and others were generally settled by the Spanish and French explorers long ago. Most Mexicans were descended from Spanish conquerors and Aztecs that inhabited the land before them. Speaking a different language does not define you as being of a different race.
 
I have owned guns since 11 but I just cannot understand what many of these guns are intended for other than taking human life. If we cannot take time out for a background check in order to at least make some effort towards a solution for these problems that means we are pretty selfish. From what I just read the company that produces the weapon used in this last spree just gained some value in stock price. That says a lot.
 
Here's something that just crossed my mind. Instead of old farts using this issue as a venue to rant about what's wrong in society and how things were "back in my day",and for both sides to push their agenda,has anybody talked to high school kids and asked them what THEY think is going on in their world that might be at the root of all this?
 
First gun I ever bought I was 15 years old and traded a bicycle in on it to lower the price a bit. The guns were all in a rack in the store with no locks or chains. High powered rifles, shot guns etc along with the 22 rim fires. It was not a high powered rifle but it was a semi automatic and held 15 rounds of ammo. Didn't have my dad along or anyone else. Could have done a lot of damage if I had that mind set. Last gun I bought I had to sign a bunch of papers and wait for dealer to call in and check me out. I have not see any legislation passed that makes it easier to buy a gun lately.
 
That's my point. Just because some people are speaking in their native language doesn't mean that they're plotting against you. If a person thinks so,then they're paranoid. They just speak it because it's their natural native language and it's easier for them. Ask somebody who's bilingual what language they think in? Does anybody think that everybody thinks in English and just speaks another language to hide something?

Go to another country where people learn English in school,but aren't exposed to it every day in their life. They'll understand you and can probably communicate in a limited way,but don't expect them to be fluent and converse with you in English.
 
How would the kids have a clue? Most of them don't know what a nuclear family is or how it would function. Many of the parents are just as clueless. When you have a strange pain in your leg, you go to a doctor, and the doctor determines whether you have a broken bone, a bone spur, a torn muscle or cancer. Some problems we can see because we knew what "normal" was like before the problem happened. Does a person blind from birth know what it means to see? Does a person born deaf understand the concept of sound?
People living with out GOD have no concept of what a creator is. They have been told they ere an accident, mutated pond scum. They do not comprehend that their is a right way and a wrong way, only that there are different ways and none wrong or so they are told.
Consider Chicago and all the violence there. Is it because they are black? No. Is it because they are poor? Again, no. It is because they have a generational problem of single parent households where there is no father, no grand father or even a great grand father to take a vested interest in teaching the boys what it means to be a man. There are a mountain of research about this problem.
This is one thing which if we do not reverse soon will be the end of America.
 
You are so right, but we can observe the signs and the seasons and know that spring is approaching. GOD gave us Revelation, and much of Daniel so we could observe the world and know that he is GOD, and He is in control.
 
Just because CNN and the other fake news outlets don't report it doesn't mean it isn't happening in other places. Europe is beset with violence of another sort, The weapon of choice there is a truck or car. Mexico and points south have crime waves that make Chiraq look positively crime free.
Several years back a crazy in China went on a stabbing spree.
 
When I was a kid we had toy guns in school and no school shooting. Today a kid gets suspended for chewing a poptart to resemble a gun.
 
What do you mean how would the kids have a clue? Are you serious? They're the ones doing the shooting and being shot. It's happening to them in their world. When it starts happening every week in retirement communities or nursing homes,our opinion will matter. Is it social media? TV? Music? Bullying? How do we know unless they tell us?

Cattle handling came light years ahead when Temple Grandin sat down in a pen full of cattle and saw the world through their eyes. Maybe things will change in high schools when somebody sits down and sees the problem through the eyes of actual high school kids instead of trying to fix the problem from the outside.

Trouble is,nobody wants to ask a question that they don't already know the answer to because it might not be the answer they want to hear. It might not agree with their opinion or agenda.

Your whole thing about Chicago is kind of what got me thinking about this. I saw an interview with a black kid who had been in a lot of trouble and had turned his life around. The interviewer asked him what took him down the wrong road in the first place. He said it was just what he saw growing up. It was on TV,in the music,you were supposed to want to be rich and have the lifestyle that went with it,so he had set out to get rich no matter what he had to do to get it.

There are those who say "It's not TV,it's not the music,it's more than that.". The kid said in his own words that that was it. Somebody finally asked him why he'd been the way he was. He answered the question honestly. What a novel concept.
 
Since the money this private organization uses comes from the people, therefore the voters, this organization is in fact an important part of our government system and helps the voters to achieve their goals. Without that organization, the minority might over power the clear majority and take away rights the majority does not want to relinquish. And just for the record, I am not a member, do not pay dues, and do not own a gun. I just believe they are in the right on this issue.
 
And 80 years ago, one of the worst mass murders in US history occurred when an individual bombed a schoolhouse in Bath, Michigan, killing 36 children and two adults. The murderer had no TV, video games or welfare. He was married, or was until he killed his wife, that is. What he did have in common with modern-day mass murderers was a seething, murderous anger.

Thinks haven't changed all that much.
Bath School Massacre
 
(quoted from post at 18:30:01 02/16/18) Since the money this private organization uses comes from the people, therefore the voters, this organization is in fact an important part of our government system and helps the voters to achieve their goals. Without that organization, the minority might over power the clear majority and take away rights the majority does not want to relinquish. And just for the record, I am not a member, do not pay dues, and do not own a gun. I just believe they are in the right on this issue.

Jon, I am having a problem with the part about this organization being an important part of our government and representing the majority when only one in 50 adults is a member.
 
"Back in the day" Guns were very easy to obtain. If you had the money you had your self a gun. There sure wasn't the problems we have now. What happened a couple days ago was a very sad day for our country, no matter your opinion on how it should be stopped. stan
 
Mental illness is a real problem, the other problem is, the Department of Justice declared that all states close mental health facilities because they say these people need to have the right to live in the communities. I work at one, and its closing, they have been moving out as fast as they can place them in the community. Some have died because of the care they received after they left the facility. Its only going to get worse. Seems like no one wants to admit there actually is mental illness.
 
The frequency has changed though Mark. We have to dig deep to find out what the trigger is,and I don't mean just have an opinion about what it is.
 
nnalert generally have very large extended nuclear families and believe in Allah, how does that fit into your theory?
 
Not only the ability to get guns,but a lot of the other things people are blaming. Some of these so called causes have been going on for decades or even generations. The frequency and severity of these incidents just keeps getting worse. Something has to be triggering it and that's what we need to be turning over every rock to find,no matter whos sacred cow gets slaughtered.
 
I believe that is a lot of the problem. Most people don't have a tactical rifle so its easy to ban them and maybe everything will be better. If congress would ban, for example, all movies and video games with excess violence there would probably be all sorts of riots and protest by many of the same people who say "something needs to be done". So we need to take the tools away instead of finding the cause. Its a pretty sad situation all the way around.
 
To me the charts shows that guns may be a tool but not the problem. Most of all the firearm deaths were suicide which most likely would have happened by another means. Switzerland was third for ownership but not on the deaths chart Finland was fourth and had three gun homicides per million. Of course there is the fact that total homicides or mass killings aren't listed for comparison. It hasn't been that long ago that two different air liner pilots(not American by the way) flew their planes off into the ocean killing all the passengers. Its easy to blame the tools because anything else will take a lot more effort and responsibility to fix.
 
Some years back they were having problems in Africa with elephants. Juvenile males would cause millions of dollars in damages. After considerable study, they determined it was because the older males were slaughtered by poachers for the ivory. No father influence.
When I was in the military we did a lot of land navigation using old lensatic compasses. It seemed we never had enough to go around, and I remember one time a guy decided to use his own from some pawn shop. It was off by a couple of degrees, and since our objective was to find numbered stakes in a field which contained many stakes, He missed his targets.
We all have a compass, a moral compass that tells us when we are off course. The problem is, some of our compasses are just not calibrated to moral north. The kid in Chicago you mentioned attributed his problems to the TV, music, and what he saw. He didn't have a father in the picture to tell him what to watch, not watch, what to not listen to, and he came from an area filled with kids who were lost as well, wanderers with out a moral compass following wanderers with out moral compasses. That same music and the same shows are on every TV fed by cable yet are the kids in backwater Kansas following the same track? Sad to say, some are, but the ones with parents who care are being steered away from the mind corrupting rot.
If you are in the early stages of some disease, you won't necessarily know it. Most of us know the symptoms of a heart attack, but not many know the symptoms of a brain tumor, so we dismiss the head ache as a migraine, the back ache as poor shoes. A friend might tell us it is the lights at work, or our belt is too tight. A doctor will examine us and discover the problem. Self diagnosing this kind of problem just doesn't work.
I picked on Chicago, but we have a host of inner cities and even smaller towns where fathers are extinct. When I graduated high school, we didn't have any single parent kids in my class. The classes we have today are full of kids who have not had dinner with dad in ages.
Maybe you don't believe in GOD, but I do. He designed the family unit to include two parents. Our society is a product of our failure to heed GOD's plans for us.
 
(quoted from post at 23:33:31 02/16/18) Some years back they were having problems in Africa with elephants. Juvenile males would cause millions of dollars in damages. After considerable study, they determined it was because the older males were slaughtered by poachers for the ivory. No father influence.
When I was in the military we did a lot of land navigation using old lensatic compasses. It seemed we never had enough to go around, and I remember one time a guy decided to use his own from some pawn shop. It was off by a couple of degrees, and since our objective was to find numbered stakes in a field which contained many stakes, He missed his targets.
We all have a compass, a moral compass that tells us when we are off course. The problem is, some of our compasses are just not calibrated to moral north. The kid in Chicago you mentioned attributed his problems to the TV, music, and what he saw. He didn't have a father in the picture to tell him what to watch, not watch, what to not listen to, and he came from an area filled with kids who were lost as well, wanderers with out a moral compass following wanderers with out moral compasses. That same music and the same shows are on every TV fed by cable yet are the kids in backwater Kansas following the same track? Sad to say, some are, but the ones with parents who care are being steered away from the mind corrupting rot.
If you are in the early stages of some disease, you won't necessarily know it. Most of us know the symptoms of a heart attack, but not many know the symptoms of a brain tumor, so we dismiss the head ache as a migraine, the back ache as poor shoes. A friend might tell us it is the lights at work, or our belt is too tight. A doctor will examine us and discover the problem. Self diagnosing this kind of problem just doesn't work.
I picked on Chicago, but we have a host of inner cities and even smaller towns where fathers are extinct. When I graduated high school, we didn't have any single parent kids in my class. The classes we have today are full of kids who have not had dinner with dad in ages.
Maybe you don't believe in GOD, but I do. He designed the family unit to include two parents. Our society is a product of our failure to heed GOD's plans for us.

Kansasredneck, this whole thing is very simple to me. As a believer you know about the depravity of man. We know that we are all sinners and from birth we care for nothing but ourselves. No infant sees that its mother is busy and waits before crying to be fed. It is RIGHT NOW! Without a proper upbringing this is going to continue all through life. As I posted earlier it has been made much worse by the "Self Esteem" movement. With half of today's young people coming from broken homes, instead of discipline they get appeasement. They are raised to believe that they are the best and everyone else needs to bow down to them. When they don't get the treatment that they deserve, they will react with varying degrees of anger. Some will shoot. This is just so simple!!!
 
Has there been a school shooting in Chicago? Have any of the shooters even been black? Are single parent households something new? As new as this rash of shootings?
You don't want to ask the questions because you don't want to be wrong. Or you don't want the people who are telling you these things to be wrong.
 
> Here's something that just crossed my mind. Instead of old farts using this issue as a venue to rant about what's wrong in society and how things were "back in my day",and for both sides to push their agenda,has anybody talked to high school kids and asked them what THEY think is going on in their world that might be at the root of all this?

Naw, we already know everything. The world is going to pot, and it's all because of "progress"!

The reality is nobody really understands what motivates most of these killers. Did the guy in Vegas kill dozens of complete strangers because he watched too much TV? I don't think so. And of course <a href="http://thehill.com/homenews/house/374149-gop-chairman-congress-should-rethink-cdc-ban-on-gun-violence-research">the CDC is forbidden to study gun violence</a>.
 
(quoted from post at 12:08:07 02/16/18) Every time I see you post this I'm amazed at how easy it really is to bend things around to fit someone's agenda.

In this case the biggest thing that was missed was the change of laws and regarding mental health and the closing of many facilities across the country.

Europe has mass shootings. Most often carried out by terrorist in possession of totally illegal firearms. That proves that someone can get the guns if they want. THey have been much more open to single parent families too for many more decade than it's been acceptable here in the US. But they didn't give people with proven mental health issues a free pass. Don't believe me?

Adam Lanza, Sandy Hook, Mother was unsuccessfully trying to get committed before he spree.

Seung-Hui Cho, VA Tech, mental health professional judged him to be a danger to himself and others before his spree.

James Holmes, Arora CO. He too was found to be a danger to himself and other prior to his spree but because of the current laws and to potential of being sued his doctor had not yet reported him.

Or what about the Christian married mom of six who killed her children?

Our politicians shut down federal money for mental health in an effort to reduce the budget years ago. None have been willing to suggest that something needs to change. This occurred BEFORE we had a homless problem too.......

Rick


BINGO!
 
There has to be a clue somewhere if you ask enough of high school kids. Somebody knows what's bothering teens enough to drive them over the edge. It just might be time to look at it from the inside.
 
If you are going to call something fake you should back it up with the sources for your ?facts?.

Mass shootings do happen in other places. But very very rarely. If you don?t trust sources like CNN, would you trust the CDC?s data from before the government banned them from compiling data. bBC, Canadian broadcasting, world health org?

Who would you trust?
 
Is there a commonality between all the shooters? If so,that needs to be looked in to,if not,then we need to be looking for something else.
 
June 16, 2017 Two girls shot during a picnic at school. Vehicle circled the school then opened fire. The shooter was Raekwon Hudson. I'm guessing Amish? That is only one of many. I'm surprised yo udidn't google it before asking, but you didn't want to know you were wrong.
While single parent households are not new, the prevalence is. How many kids were in your class that had a single parent? For me it was zero although there were a pair of brothers, one and two years older who lived with grandma because mom was not able to take care of their needs.
It is the generational aspect you miss. Single parentage is one serious symptom, another is disrespect for our creator, GOD.
 
I agree with you. A person who is insulated from failure, every one gets a participation trophy, won't know what to do when things don't go their way.
A note about self esteem. Several years ago there was a study released about criminals and self esteem. Criminals have the highest self esteem. A person with high self esteem is self centered, the are the most important person in their universe so they do what is right in their mind. (refer to Judges 21:25)
 
Up until the 1980's almost no one open carried a pistol in Western Iowa. The few guys that did were scoffed at and shunned because they were usually a little weird or paranoid. WW2 and Korean war veterans seemed to scoff the most, as if the guy was walking around with a hand grenade. Some probably did conceal carry, but they made sure that no one else was aware it was there.
 
OK,I give up. You're right. You've found the answer. Fix it by Monday. If anymore mass school shootings happen,it's your fault for knowing the answer and not doing something about it.
 
(quoted from post at 08:30:26 02/17/18) Is there a commonality between all the shooters? If so,that needs to be looked in to,if not,then we need to be looking for something else.

Randy, absolutely there is commonality. It is so clear. And I have been spending a lot of time for years now trying to figure out how to get the the people making the laws to see it. There are many, many people that I associate with and talk with who agree very strongly, but society and the policy and lawmakers and educators are so stuck on believing the psychologists. Where could one start?
 
What is that commonality? Lack of religion? Single parent household? Social media? Music?

Whatever it is,those people doing the shooting can't be the only ones who share that commonality. What's the trigger?
 
Fake news, https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2018/02/15/sharyl-attkisson-tedx-speech-discussing-origin-of-fake-news/#more-145938

I don't trust any source I cannot verify. reporting details is one thing, motives and reasons are another.
The media reported information gleened from wire tappings of nnalert's campaign. Donald nnalert made a statement on twitter complaining that they had wire tapped him. Fake media claimed there was no wire tapping. We now know there was, and it was massive. Our own DOJ weaponized into an arm of the socialists. And Russian involvement? What charitable foundation received money coincidentally at the time the Uranium one purchase happened?
If you don't understand it, you might want to check your news source. I'm not going to spend time finding links. I don't listen to CNN or faux. SeeBS is off my list for decades. Cronik-liar and Blather lied about Vietnam resulting in our abandoning them to the horrors of communism. But that's the way it is.....
 
What weapons have no other use? The AR-15 is an excellent rifle for shooting prairie dogs and coyote. Some that I would consider as only for taking human life would be small frame pistols like many of us carry to defend our lives from people who would gladly end them for the few dollars in our pockets. But if a few of the teachers at our schools had them to protect our precious children, would people like this go to school to slaughter?
 
The most common factor seems to be a semi-automatic weapon with a number of high capacity magazines. That seems to be the elephant in the room that is being ignored at all costs.
 
If a kid drove a car in to a group of classmates gathered in front of a school,do you think it would be an isolated incident,or do you think it would be just the beginning of a new trend?

How about a pipe bomb in a locker set off when the halls were crowded? Would it lead to copy cats?
 
June 16, 2017 Two girls shot during a picnic at school. Vehicle circled the school then opened fire. The shooter was Raekwon Hudson. I'm guessing Amish?

Why don't you do a little research before you post BS? The shooter wasn't amish! Where do you even get that?
 
'Amish' in couple post should have had a 'Sarcasm Alert!' indicating a reference to a group that is NOT known for some activity--
but actual group reference in vulgate wouldn't make it through potty filter- like referring to many crime victims and attackers in
Chicago with a word derived from Latin meaning the color 'Black'. Amish and Hasidim are some times referred to as' blacks' or
'black coats' from the clothing commonly worn - but that term is used for some other racial group as well and it doesn't refer to
coats. 'Schwartze' is a more polite term for skin color, 'Z' word is the similar to "N' Word for the PC crowd-- and that 'N' word
reference is 'political' , not 'racial' for some people- like some residents of Skokie, Illinois. RN.
 
Some? try very few. They have basically four categories. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Firearms_Directive Single shot long guns are the only thing not required to be registered or authorized.
Individuals cannot own more than twelve firearms cannot own more than ten magazines and cannot own more than 1000 rounds of ammunition. The exceptions are Norway, Switzerland, and Iceland. You also must be affiliated with a shooting range.
 
(quoted from post at 13:52:04 02/17/18) What is that commonality? Lack of religion? Single parent household? Social media? Music?

Whatever it is,those people doing the shooting can't be the only ones who share that commonality. What's the trigger?

The trigger? They are mentally ill. Thinking about how nice it would be if all your problems went away is normal. Getting a weapon of any kind and actually trying to kill people? No, that's not normal. It's mental illness, insanity, being nuts. Why are they nuts? Because they lack the skills to cope with real life. We have fostered a society that breeds these people and does nothing but protect them up to the point they commit some tragic act. We don't look at mental illness, we don't address it, we certainly don't try to get these people off the street. Instead, we punish the innocent. Criminals and the insane don't follow the law, but "The Answer" (more gun control) will only punish those who aren't the problem!
 

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