Wife just inherited Golden Jubilee with wiring problems

[HanknotFrank]

(quoted from post at 14:56:47 08/07/23)
That wiring should work, and it would not be related to the engine getting hot. Was the radiator full to at least the top of the tubes? What was the oil pressure?

When it was running, did you notice if the ammeter showed a charge or a discharge? You would need to check the voltage when running but if it showed discharge and the voltage at the battery is up over battery voltage when shut off, you likely need to swap the wires to the opposite terminals on the ammeter.

The ammeter barely moved but was slightly negative. Thanks again.

 

[Jim.ME]

Have your voltmeter ready next time you have it running. If the battery voltage goes up and the ammeter shows discharge swap the wires on the ammeter terminals. A one wire alternator may require speeding the engine up to start it charging.

 

[HanknotFrank]

(quoted from post at 15:19:24 08/07/23)
Have your voltmeter ready next time you have it running. If the battery voltage goes up and the ammeter shows discharge swap the wires on the ammeter terminals. A one wire alternator may require speeding the engine up to start it charging.

k thank you.

 

[HFJ]

(quoted from post at 14:00:37 07/27/23) It turns out the secret to removing rusted screws you can't get to is to cuss in at least 5 languages. I only used 4 and when I through in Portuguese it did the trick and they came right out.

ah, excellent, Hank. ty for this. so much to learn here

 

[HanknotFrank]

(quoted from post at 04:06:19 08/08/23)

(quoted from post at 15:19:24 08/07/23)
Have your voltmeter ready next time you have it running. If the battery voltage goes up and the ammeter shows discharge swap the wires on the ammeter terminals. A one wire alternator may require speeding the engine up to start it charging.

k thank you.

Well I am back again. I received and installed a new temp gage. It has a post for one wire that the original did not have. There is background lighting on the gage but it is not showing temp at all??? The tapered nut for the probe did not screw in as far as the old one. I was not sure where to put the wire from the gage so I tried one side of terminal and then the other, no difference, just a light but no reading. I might have mentioned engine got real hot before and was smoking. After looking closely, I found a piece of wood laying near the exhaust manifold that somehow my father in-law with dimentia layed on the engine. At least I didn't`t kill the engine after all.

 

[Jim.ME]

(quoted from post at 08:47:11 08/15/23)

(quoted from post at 04:06:19 08/08/23)

(quoted from post at 15:19:24 08/07/23)
Have your voltmeter ready next time you have it running. If the battery voltage goes up and the ammeter shows discharge swap the wires on the ammeter terminals. A one wire alternator may require speeding the engine up to start it charging.

k thank you.

Well I am back again. I received and installed a new temp gage. It has a post for one wire that the original did not have. There is background lighting on the gage but it is not showing temp at all??? The tapered nut for the probe did not screw in as far as the old one. I was not sure where to put the wire from the gage so I tried one side of terminal and then the other, no difference, just a light but no reading. I might have mentioned engine got real hot before and was smoking. After looking closely, I found a piece of wood laying near the exhaust manifold that somehow my father in-law with dimentia layed on the engine. At least I didn't`t kill the engine after all.

How about pictures of the gauge you got and/or the brand and part number, so we can see what you are looking at. (The gauge and the engine connection point.) If it is a mechanical gauge with a sensor bulb that goes into the engine, there have been posts about not all the replacement sensor bulbs fitting and sealing properly in the engine.

If it is a back lit mechanical gauge the wire is just for the light, the reading comes to the gauge via the capillary tube from the sensor bulb in the engine.

 

[HanknotFrank]

Thanks again for responding. I have some pictures. The gage is an el cheapo but I saw this same gage everywhere from $20 to $40. The threads for the bulb don't go in anywhere near as much as the old one. To tighten it more I would have to force it and create more problems. I removed the wire since you said it was just for the light.

 

[Jim.ME]

That is a mechanical gauge, the wire is just for the light inside. An electric gauge would not have the tube and sensor bulb attached. The electrical sending unit is a separate part and you would have to wire power to the gauge and wire from the gauge to the sending unit. Electrical gauges and senders need to match for proper readings.

The adapter that threads into the head is NPT and may thread in more or less than the old one as the thread is tapered. The nut that holds the sensor bulb will thread into different adapters different distances (if they will thread in). The important thing is that the senso bulb is held securely and does not leak.

How long did you run it looking for the gauge to show a reading? It might take a while if just idling. Check with a temp gun to see what temp it shows where the sensor is in the engine. The engine may need to be over 100 degrees before it shows any movement. If there was no paperwork with the gauge telling the color ranges you would need to suspend the sensor in a pan of water and monitor the water temp, while heating the water, to compare to the needle location on the gauge at different temps.

 

[HanknotFrank]

I probably ran it for 5 to 10 minutes. I will run it longer and do what you said to check the engine heat. Thanks.

 

[HanknotFrank]

I checked the voltage of the battery after starting and even with the engine having high rpms the voltage does not go above 12.34. I ran the engine long enough for the mechanical temp gage to start working. I have not checked it with boiling water yet to "calibrate" it. With the engine running and fairly warmed up, I try to drive it and when letting out the clutch it just won't go. Makes me wonder if the clutch is shot but I never heard any thing about clutch problems from my father in law, just wiring problems and something draining the battery. Thanks.

 

[Jim.ME]

(quoted from post at 20:15:38 08/17/23) I checked the voltage of the battery after starting and even with the engine having high rpms the voltage does not go above 12.34. I ran the engine long enough for the mechanical temp gage to start working. I have not checked it with boiling water yet to "calibrate" it. With the engine running and fairly warmed up, I try to drive it and when letting out the clutch it just won't go. Makes me wonder if the clutch is shot but I never heard any thing about clutch problems from my father in law, just wiring problems and something draining the battery. Thanks.

How about a good picture of the back of the alternator. And the front showing the pulley.

When you say it just won't go when you let the clutch out, does the engine stays running ok, but it is like transmission is in neutral, it just sets there?

 

[HanknotFrank]

I can be in reverse or any forward gear and as I start to let out the clutch the tractor will move slightly but then will not move even with clutch out. It does not kill the engine. I guess it is like being in neutral except it is in gear and clutch is out. When depressing clutch to put it in gear it works fine, no scraping noises. It almost feels like trying to drive a car that has a very strong parking brake on. Thanks.

 

[Jim.ME]

(quoted from post at 07:00:14 08/18/23) I can be in reverse or any forward gear and as I start to let out the clutch the tractor will move slightly but then will not move even with clutch out. It does not kill the engine. I guess it is like being in neutral except it is in gear and clutch is out. When depressing clutch to put it in gear it works fine, no scraping noises. It almost feels like trying to drive a car that has a very strong parking brake on. Thanks.

A one wire alternator often has a plug hiding the two spade terminals as they are not needed, if it is one wire. As a test I suggest using a jumper wire between the battery post and the #1 spade terminal to see if it will charge when the engine is running (don't leave the jumper connected after the test). If it does charge, I would believe you have a three-wire alternator, not one wire (or something is wrong in the circuitry, if it is a one wire). If it is a three-wire you can add a couple wires and it will work. Can you post legible pictures of the tags on it?

As for the clutch, how much free play does the pedal have? That is how much movement does the pedal have from where it is when your foot is off it to the point where you feel the throwout bearing make contact with the pressure plate. Without looking up the actual spec I would expect about 1 inch.

This post was edited by Jim.ME on 08/18/2023 at 04:53 am.

 

[HanknotFrank]

I had a pro come by (he restores tractors and is a friend of the family). He found one wire wrong on the ammeter and he showed me a lever on the back of the tractor that he said is rare for that model. My father in law had installed a way to change something about the pto. With it in a certain position it would affect the pro and the clutch too( I guess). Once he moved the lever back and changed one wire the battery showed more voltage and the clutch worked fine. Thanks for all your help. I've learned a lot in the past few weeks from tinkering and corresponding with you. Thanks again. Hank(not Frank).

 

[Jim.ME]

I'm curious and interested in what I might have missed in your drawing. Looking at the wiring diagram you drew and posted, there were only two wires on the ammeter. One from the solenoid (should have been the same wire the positive battery cable hooks to) and the one on the other terminal supplied power to the terminal block where the other wires connected. As I posted if it showed discharge when the battery voltage was up, when running, you needed to swap the two wires on the ammeter. Which [u:35e2aaf0f1]one[/u:35e2aaf0f1] did he find wrong on the ammeter?

Did the gentleman that looked at your Jubilee say the PTO was the optional ''live'' PTO? It sounds like it might be from your description.

 

[HanknotFrank]

Thanks again for responding. For some reason I didn`t see it until a few minutes ago. I think the wire changed was the alternator wire, it was gong to the terminal block and he ran it straight to the ammeter. While he was there he looked at a lot of things and told me a lot about the tractor in general, like screens, gaskets, tightened some leaky connections etc. I still seem to have a voltage at the battery issue. While he was here the voltage did go from 12.34 with engine running to 12. 64 (I think after he switched that wire). I was so elated at him showing me why the tractor was not moving because of the live pro that we did not focus much on the voltage. I'm not positive I still have a voltage problem but he suggested a new ammeter which I did and there is still no movement of the needle even with high rpms. I took the alternator and had it checked and it checked good but everyone says I should have around 13 or 14 volts when tractor is running and it is 12.6 at most. I'm loading a picture of the live pto. To me it looks factory but I thought the restoration guy said my father in law added it, but maybe not. This same guy says my father in laws dad bought it in 1955 with 200 hours on it and he spent time on it with my father in law as a kid and has lots of good memories about it. My wife loves it because of all the family memories.

 

[Jim.ME]

(quoted from post at 12:34:48 08/29/23) Thanks again for responding. For some reason I didn`t see it until a few minutes ago. I think the wire changed was the alternator wire, it was gong to the terminal block and he ran it straight to the ammeter. While he was there he looked at a lot of things and told me a lot about the tractor in general, like screens, gaskets, tightened some leaky connections etc. I still seem to have a voltage at the battery issue. While he was here the voltage did go from 12.34 with engine running to 12. 64 (I think after he switched that wire). I was so elated at him showing me why the tractor was not moving because of the live pro that we did not focus much on the voltage. I'm not positive I still have a voltage problem but he suggested a new ammeter which I did and there is still no movement of the needle even with high rpms. I took the alternator and had it checked and it checked good but everyone says I should have around 13 or 14 volts when tractor is running and it is 12.6 at most. I'm loading a picture of the live pto. To me it looks factory but I thought the restoration guy said my father in law added it, but maybe not. This same guy says my father in laws dad bought it in 1955 with 200 hours on it and he spent time on it with my father in law as a kid and has lots of good memories about it. My wife loves it because of all the family memories.

If he moved the alternator wire from the terminal block to the post you show as + on the ammeter, that would bypass the ammeter and it would not show you any amps, even if it is charging. Again, unless your drawing was wrong the wiring was fine as you drew it.

If the battery is down, it will take a bit of time to see 13.6 to 14 volts at the battery, the alternator doesn't just jump to that higher voltage if the battery is down.

Did you ever try putting a temporary jumper wire between the alternator battery post and the #1 spade terminal on it, as I suggested to see if your alternator may not be a true one wire?

What is the diameter of the pulley on the alternator? Is the belt tight enough that you cannot turn the alternator fan with your hands when the engine is off? It may be the picture but the pulley looks like it might be a bit narrow for the belt.

 

[HanknotFrank]

I responded earlier but I did not hit submit or something. The pulley OD on the alternator is about 2 5/8" with a tape (could not locate my calipers). I was surprised to find that I could turn the fan on the alternator without the belt moving. I have not done the test you suggested, mostly because I am not sure how to do it. Can you dumb it down a little bit? I don`t understand which wire or jumper I need to run where. Thanks.

 

[Jim.ME]

(quoted from post at 19:44:47 08/29/23) I responded earlier but I did not hit submit or something. The pulley OD on the alternator is about 2 5/8" with a tape (could not locate my calipers). I was surprised to find that I could turn the fan on the alternator without the belt moving. I have not done the test you suggested, mostly because I am not sure how to do it. Can you dumb it down a little bit? I don`t understand which wire or jumper I need to run where. Thanks.

A loose belt will reduce the charging because of slipping. 2-5/8 diameter should be good, if the top of the belt is running flush or just below the rim of the pulley. It looks like the belt pretty well fills the width of the crank and water pump pulleys, it should not be running and wearing (shiny) in the bottom off the vees of the crank and water pump pulleys.

A jumper wire can be just a piece of automotive electrical wire. In this case put a slip-on spade end terminal on one end and an ''alligator'' clip on the other end. Put the slip-on terminal end on the #1 spade terminal and use the alligator clip end to hold the jumper wire on to the alternator battery post during the test. Run as shown by the yellow stripe in this picture. If that increases the charging rate, more wiring may be needed. When the alternator was tested, did they energize the field (#1) terminal for the test?

 

[HanknotFrank]

I will try what you said with the jumper. The guy doing the test would not let me watch. I probably would not have known or known to ask. Thanks.