- Thread starter bmoran4
- Start date
Ultradog MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Twin Cities
Did you install the clutch disc backwards?
Probably every one here has done that...
No you don't need to use wedges. Tighten
the pressure plate by going around from
bolt and tighten it in a couple of stages.
Probably every one here has done that...
No you don't need to use wedges. Tighten
the pressure plate by going around from
bolt and tighten it in a couple of stages.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Is it required to use wooden wedges or similar when installing the pressure plate?
No but it does make life much easier.
One important step is to check clutch finger height your F-04 manual gives the spec on it and how to make the tool.
I have performed 100's of clutch jobs its rare the manufacture gives a spec when they do I sure as ell check it... : )
No but it does make life much easier.
One important step is to check clutch finger height your F-04 manual gives the spec on it and how to make the tool.
I have performed 100's of clutch jobs its rare the manufacture gives a spec when they do I sure as ell check it... : )
Yes, clutch plate is installed in the correct orientation. I've split this tractor three times spurred by replacing the ring gear and haven't been able to get the clutch to disengage at all... I did not use the wedges and just did as you explained, systematically tightening the pressure plate mounting bolts.
The clutch was working great before replacing the ring gear. Since the existing clutch and bearings and pressure plate looked like they had been very low hours, I reused them. Clutch wouldn't disengage. I did happen to have a clutch and bearing kit on hand because when you split a tractor, you only want to do it once and it was a good opportunity to address those items, but like I said they were very low hours, but since just reinstalling the existing low hour components didn't work, I went and installed all new, and still can't get the clutch to disengage. I split the tractor again to verify I had the clutch on the right way and check things out and crossed my fingers. No luck in getting the clutch to disengage. I tried adjusting the clutch pedal - no joy. I removed the starter to poke an inexpensive ubiquitous boroscope camera into the chamber and couldn't see anything that looked wrong. I had no idea replacing a clutch in the 8N would be so finicky! I am just wanting to push it off a cliff and enjoy the release of frustration watching it tumble and crunch up right now, but don't worry - that is just the frustration coming through.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Once you confirm all the linkage is working as it should with no cracks are broken pins Its probably going to be best you remove the steering gear to see what's going on...
The linkage will humble you its best to have someone work it while you inspect every piece of it. A crack is hard to see unless its under compression.
Once the release bearing contacts the clutch fingers the the total travel is about 3/8" it only takes about .050 of clearance to completely release the clutch from the pressure plate. Its not a big of a throw as you would think it would be.
Tips in this post
https://forums.yesterdaystractors.c...ostorder=asc&highlight=clutch&start=0
Very interesting read. I just can't fathom the probability of replacing a ring gear (and the associated everything as previously described) would go from a working clutch to one that won't disengage. Is it that easy to introduce cracks on the transmission shaft side when all the work was on the flywheel side?
You make it sound like removing the steering box is a piece of cake - that also involves the steering wheel and dash - it is doable, but it will take some motivation that I just don't have at the moment... is that really the thing to do?
When I split mine [a '41 9n],The springs that hold back the throwout bearing were bad,the clutch was stuck
to the input shaft and hed some wear. I had replaced a few clutches on pickup trucks and hot-rods,so it
wasn't a big deal. I got a clutch kit,including clutch plate,pressure plate and throwout. It is easy to put
the plate on backwards,but even after replacing many,I still had to look at some drawings in my manual,as it
had been some years since I had replaced a clutch in anything but some motorcycles.
to the input shaft and hed some wear. I had replaced a few clutches on pickup trucks and hot-rods,so it
wasn't a big deal. I got a clutch kit,including clutch plate,pressure plate and throwout. It is easy to put
the plate on backwards,but even after replacing many,I still had to look at some drawings in my manual,as it
had been some years since I had replaced a clutch in anything but some motorcycles.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
If you have confirmed the linkage is intact and functional the only window you will have to the inner workings is removing the box...
Are you can remove the flywheel assemble the clutch set to the flywheel put it in a press move the fingers 3/8" max to check for release of the clutch disc.
If I had the luxury of a window I am taking it : )
Are you can remove the flywheel assemble the clutch set to the flywheel put it in a press move the fingers 3/8" max to check for release of the clutch disc.
If I had the luxury of a window I am taking it : )
Nope, still unresolved. Attempted to adjust the clutch - no adjustment would make it work, so I put it back where it was working before I opened Pandora's box. Went through the FO-4 manual and really the only thing I could come up with was not using the wooden wedges upon installation, hence the question. Based on my general mechanical experience, I didn't think they were necessary and just tightened the the pressure plate assembly in stages, and that seems to jive with the consensus here. So I'm still on the search for a resolution to this whole ordeal.
This post was edited by bmoran4 on 07/15/2022 at 04:49 pm.
Okay, update: Steering wheel came off so easy that it would make anyone jealous. Not even 30 seconds. Just remove the acorn and the wheel was loose and came right off! So, with that dreaded operation out of the way, I attempted to remove the dash. It took me too long to figure out the throttle stick needed to come out. That took some WD-40 and angry words, but once it was out, the dash could be separated to allow access to the steering box mounting bolts. They came off nice and easy too. All in all, not too bad. I was really dreading the steering wheel. So, now I have a window and I'm still scratching my head...
Here is the clutch pedal in its "resting" position:
And here it is with the pedal all the way down and you can see witness marks showing it moved about 3/4 or a little more of an inch:
I kind of agree on that. I just don't know why. I can't get the clutch pedal to adjust favorably, and in my other thread, I went around and around and around on clutch plate orientation. I am 1000000% sure it was right every single time. Longer nose away from the flywheel towards the pressure plate/transmission. Shorter nose towards the flywheel/engine. You can see the long nose here to verify orientation currently:
I do have another clutch release arm kit in the mail to me as the existing one was brazed/welded prior to my ownership. It was all working just fine before the ring gear. I find it very unlikely that a crack would develop at the same time as replacing the ring gear etc...
This post was edited by bmoran4 on 07/16/2022 at 06:22 pm.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Here is the clutch pedal in its "resting" position:
Wuz the release bearing touching the plate fingers.
It really does look like the disc is in backwards from your picture. The throwout bearing is moving and the fingers are moving.
Here's an ebay ad for a clutch disc with a good side view. The side that has the raised portion where the springs are is the side that faces the pressure plate.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/152871873736
This post was edited by Eman85 on 07/17/2022 at 09:48 am.
Here's an ebay ad for a clutch disc with a good side view. The side that has the raised portion where the springs are is the side that faces the pressure plate.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/152871873736
This post was edited by Eman85 on 07/17/2022 at 09:48 am.
[size=24:3fa78ef055][color=red:3fa78ef055]THE CLUTCH PLATE IS NOT BACKWARDS!!!!!![/color:3fa78ef055][/size:3fa78ef055]
The flatter side, smaller nose is to the flywheel. The larger nose, with the protrusion for the springs faces the transmission.
It doesn't show well on camera, but the depth of spring housing protrusion (red arrow) is basically equivalent to the thickness of the actual pressure plate of the pressure plate assembly (green arrow). If it were in backwards, the spring assembly on the clutch plate would be more forward of the actual pressure plate.
Apologies for being obstinate on this, but I insist that all three times, the clutch plate orientation has been proper, including the current time.
This post was edited by bmoran4 on 07/17/2022 at 11:26 am.
showcrop
Well-known Member
(quoted from post at 11:21:01 07/17/22)
[size=24:000255f611][color=red:000255f611]THE CLUTCH PLATE IS NOT BACKWARDS!!!!!![/color:000255f611][/size:000255f611]
The flatter side, smaller nose is to the flywheel. The larger nose, with the protrusion for the springs faces the transmission.
It doesn't show well on camera, but the depth of spring housing protrusion (red arrow) is basically equivalent to the thickness of the actual pressure plate of the pressure plate assembly (green arrow). If it were in backwards, the spring assembly on the clutch plate would be more forward of the actual pressure plate.
Apologies for being obstinate on this, but I insist that all three times, the clutch plate orientation has been proper, including the current time.
This post was edited by bmoran4 on 07/17/2022 at 11:26 am.
Well, I will be obstinate as well. As I posted earlier you should always measure before putting it together as Hobo showed. And don't worry about being obstinate. There is at least one a week who comes here for help insisting that his problem can't be a common easy one. His has to be an obscure hard one.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Hello
I wish it were as simple as putting the clutch plate in backwards. As stated before, I already had the tractor apart 3 times - once for the original ring gear replacement, and two more to check the clutch plate orientation (there are previous posts where I was encouraged to make these checks and have). It is not that I refuse to check - I have split the tractor specifically to do so, and every time it is as I've been told it should be. I have consumed more than my fair share of my helpers good will in splitting (and rejoining) the tractor all these times. I'm seeking to further advance this discussion towards a resolution beyond the clutch plate being backwards as that has been checked and double checked already. The act of doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result is the definition...............
As for cracks and pins and such - this was a working driving tractor - it just had a worn ring gear that I choose to address. After replacing the ring gear, the clutch no longer disengaged. As shown in the pictures, the clutch fork does move and just kisses the fingers. I believe above only 50 thou of movement is needed on the fingers, so I should be good. Since the clutch adjustment linkage fork was previously brazed/welded, I do have another coming in the mail just to be sure that isn't playing foul (not here yet). I've tried adjusting the clutch (after marking the position it was in) and wasn't able to do any better. The FO-4 isn't very helpful in technique - just 3/4" petal play is given, and I'm not sure how to achieve that. It wasn't that way when working anyways, so I just put it back where it was (counted turns).
deanostoybox
Member
Could be clutch is OK, something else keeping it turning. Frozen pilot bearing?
Long time ago someone told me this story, or I read it somewhere, or maybe I dreamed it.
Story goes these old boys had put a clutch in something and it would not release. They had checked and double checked and triple checked, all was as it should be, just would not release. So they took it apart again and found- NO pilot bearing.
Kinda seems like someone told me that story once.
N pilot bearing is installed in flywheel, not in crankshaft.
Long time ago someone told me this story, or I read it somewhere, or maybe I dreamed it.
Story goes these old boys had put a clutch in something and it would not release. They had checked and double checked and triple checked, all was as it should be, just would not release. So they took it apart again and found- NO pilot bearing.
Kinda seems like someone told me that story once.
N pilot bearing is installed in flywheel, not in crankshaft.
Anything is possible, but I have no real reason to suspect it isn't my original fly wheel. I doubt any random flywheel would bolt up to the crank, and that any old flywheel would accept the pressure plate assembly. This would have been the only N series flywheel in their shop as they really only work on "newer" performance engines. I did not opt to have the flywheel resurfaced as like I said before, it seems the existing clutch was low hours.
The pilot bearing was present in the flywheel when the flywheel was mounted to the crankshaft. Can one inadvertently press the bearing out when trying to rejoin the tractor? If so, the bearing wasn't obviously spotted when boroscoped or viewed through the steering box, but I can try to take a better look....
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Hello, my question do you have a answer...
"As shown in the pictures, the clutch fork does move and just kisses the fingers. I believe above only 50 thou of movement is needed on the fingers, so I should be good."
WTF do you mean by DAT...
"just 3/4" petal play is given"
That's for dumb arses that don't know how to properly adjust a clutch and never will.
You have a window their should be no mystery I told ya the release bearing should move the fingers around 3/8" to achieve full release. All in said and done once the release bearing makes contact with the fingers about all they will move them is 3/8"...
50 tho if you could put a .050 tho feeler gauge between the depressed clutch disc and pressure plate are flywheel that is considered adequate clearance to fully release the clutch
Whut is it you don't understand about that.
I am not getting 3/8" finger deflection. Most of the bearing travel is before contact with the fingers.
This sounds like a good tree to bark up and seems to be clutch adjustment. I am admittedly lacking in technique, and the manual didn't really offer much assistance. I even resorted to putting a bottle jack (for positioning, not "force") on the release arm fork after tightening the eye bolt some but couldn't get the pedal to line up with it. o after a few attempts, I just turned the eye bolt back to where it was working prior to the whole ordeal.
I've never adjusted an N series clutch before and so I am lacking in experience, but far from "dumb arses that don't know how to properly adjust a clutch and never will". I'd appreciate any constructive assistance with getting this right.
This post was edited by bmoran4 on 07/17/2022 at 07:19 pm.
[size=24:6413163a6b][color=red:6413163a6b]THE CLUTCH PLATE IS NOT BACKWARDS!!!!!![/color:6413163a6b][/size:6413163a6b]
The flatter side, smaller nose is to the flywheel. The larger nose, with the protrusion for the springs faces the transmission.
It doesn't show well on camera, but the depth of spring housing protrusion (red arrow) is basically equivalent to the thickness of the actual pressure plate of the pressure plate assembly (green arrow). If it were in backwards, the spring assembly on the clutch plate would be more forward of the actual pressure plate.
Apologies for being obstinate on this, but I insist that all three times, the clutch plate orientation has been proper, including the current time.
[/quote]
What is the spring on the left side of the picture behind the throw out bearing under the red arrow? Spring out of the clutch disk? It looks out of place.
This post was edited by Den N Ms on 07/18/2022 at 04:02 am.
The flatter side, smaller nose is to the flywheel. The larger nose, with the protrusion for the springs faces the transmission.
It doesn't show well on camera, but the depth of spring housing protrusion (red arrow) is basically equivalent to the thickness of the actual pressure plate of the pressure plate assembly (green arrow). If it were in backwards, the spring assembly on the clutch plate would be more forward of the actual pressure plate.
Apologies for being obstinate on this, but I insist that all three times, the clutch plate orientation has been proper, including the current time.
[/quote]
What is the spring on the left side of the picture behind the throw out bearing under the red arrow? Spring out of the clutch disk? It looks out of place.
This post was edited by Den N Ms on 07/18/2022 at 04:02 am.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
If the fingers are moving 3/8" the other thing you can do is remove the left floorboard so the pedal will have more travel. Either way the clutch is coming out for inspection.
Remove the flywheel assemble the clutch and put it in a press. Manually press on the fingers and check for clutch release.
Proper clutch adjustment has noting to do with clutch pedal free play it all has to do with clearance at the release bearing to clutch fingers.
(quoted from post at 06:58:35 07/18/22) [size=24:e43185f389][color=red:e43185f389]THE CLUTCH PLATE IS NOT BACKWARDS!!!!!![/color:e43185f389][/size:e43185f389]
The flatter side, smaller nose is to the flywheel. The larger nose, with the protrusion for the springs faces the transmission.
It doesn't show well on camera, but the depth of spring housing protrusion (red arrow) is basically equivalent to the thickness of the actual pressure plate of the pressure plate assembly (green arrow). If it were in backwards, the spring assembly on the clutch plate would be more forward of the actual pressure plate.
Apologies for being obstinate on this, but I insist that all three times, the clutch plate orientation has been proper, including the current time.
What is the spring on the left side of the picture behind the throw out bearing under the red arrow? Spring out of the clutch disk? It looks out of place.
This post was edited by Den N Ms on 07/18/2022 at 04:02 am.
[/quote]ttps://forumphotos.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/mvphoto94790.jpg[/img]
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
That's a problem with the linkage are something is binding up the pressure plate ?...
Look at this REAL GOOD.
https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?p=8594533&highlight=crack#8594533
So are you saying that the throwout bearing moves a long way before it contacts the clutch fingers? I'd take all of the play out and see how much it moves the clutch fingers and if it releases the disc.
You originally asked about wooden wedges. They are there sometimes and are used to hold the fingers in a compressed position so the pressure plate bolts down easily. If they are not used then you have all of the pressure of the pressure plate pushing back on you so when you tighten the bolts evenly you can see the fingers move as you tighten.
You originally asked about wooden wedges. They are there sometimes and are used to hold the fingers in a compressed position so the pressure plate bolts down easily. If they are not used then you have all of the pressure of the pressure plate pushing back on you so when you tighten the bolts evenly you can see the fingers move as you tighten.
This is exactly what I tried to do with the clutch pedal adjustment to no avail. I've tried adjusting the clutch (after noting the position it was in) and wasn't able to do any better. The FO-4 isn't very helpful in technique - just 3/4" petal play is given, and I'm not sure how to achieve that. It wasn't that way when working anyways, so I just put it back where it was (counted turns). I would appreciate any methodology suggestions you (or others) may have.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
You are the one with the eyes you will have to find out where the issue lies. By now as I original thought your issue is in the linkage. When I said I had cracked parts you could not see a crack unless the linkage was under compression. No load the crack closed up.
You should be able to adjust the release bearing up to zero clearance then back off till the fingers do not constantly spin the release bearing with the engine running.
"That is the purpose of adjusting the clutch to have a little slack between the bearing and clutch fingers" If not the constant running of the release bearing again the fingers will destroy those parts.
I linked a post here it is again anything is suspect. Read it and try to understand it.
https://forums.yesterdaystractors.c...postorder=asc&highlight=crack&start=0
These two things are a problem.
Your clutch isnt releasing because the release levers are not being pressed far enough.
Your release lever height needs to be adjusted so that you have more throw on the levers.
If indeed, your pressure plate does not have release lever adjustment screws, throw it away and get one that does.
I've probably done a hundred or more clutch jobs on tractors, and learned a long time ago to check the height of release levers every time.
Why wasn't this suspected crack not an issue before the ring gear was replaced? I have inspected the clutch release arm to the best of my abilities with no obvious crack found. However, I also have a serviceable (used, new to me) clutch release arm and shaft in the mail.
How do I do this? My last attempt did not have the right technique to accomplish anything.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
see jimtrs post
"Your clutch isnt releasing because the release levers are not being pressed far enough."
You are not putting enoufh pressure on the linkage to see a cracked part spread open are something in the linkage is worn/broken/slipped.
When you get your replacement parts take apart inspect every part of the linkage. Replace any parts that are worn get it back as close to original with no ware as possible.
"Why wasn't this suspected crack not an issue before the ring gear was replaced? "
70 years of ware and tear has caught up with ya... : (
Can you point me to any of the available pressure plate assemblies that have these adjustment screws on the finger tips anymore? All of them are pre-set at manufacture with ground surfaces.
Also, this begs the question why did the previously working and reinstalled existing clutch and pressure plate not work after the first split?
Now that I mention my initial plate, the finger tips on it do have set screws for adjustment, but not the roughly 3/8 of an inch I need...
Your first post:
I've since mentioned multiple times that I have checked the clutch plate orientation by splitting the tractor multiple times ("before putting it back together"). I didn't happen to take a picture of it apart, but I have done what was asked - to split the tractor and check the clutch plate orientation, more than once. I have not ignored any recommendations - I may have asked clarifying questions around processes, procedures, or line of thinking, but I do not believe I have ignored anyone. The only thing that comes close to being "ignored" was Hobo's recommendation to check the clutch finger adjustment using a homemade tool. I do not have such a tool, nor the facilities to make one, nor does one seem to be available for purchase. I will gladly follow up on that should a tool become available for me to use.
[color=darkblue:548fe0ce22][size=18:548fe0ce22]My outstanding asks:[/size:548fe0ce22][/color:548fe0ce22]
[size=18:548fe0ce22][list:548fe0ce22]
[*:548fe0ce22]How to get the 3/8 finger deflection?
[list:548fe0ce22]
[*:548fe0ce22]Better instructions/techniques for adjusting the clutch release eye bolt
[*:548fe0ce22]How to adjust the fingers/Where to get a new pressure plate with adjustable fingers
[/list:u:548fe0ce22]
[*:548fe0ce22]Please hang tight while I address potential cracks with a new to me clutch release arm, fork, and shaft assembly - it is in the mail.
[*:548fe0ce22]Any leads on Ford Finger Height Gauge Tool? I don't have one, can't make one.
[*:548fe0ce22]Anything else to look at, inspect and check?
[/list:u:548fe0ce22][/size:548fe0ce22]
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
In one of my links I show and tell how to use a level and a tape... I also express if you don't have those tools you need to turn in your man card.
Do the google or go to a locally owned parts store or implement dealer and ask if there is a clutch rebuilder in your area. Any clutch rebuilder that remains will know old tractor clutches. Bring your flywheel and all clutch parts and they can tell you if the parts are working correctly and the clutch is correct.
Not trying to be a WA but you said yourself that it all worked before you took it apart and put it back together. You can't blame us for thinking it's human error.
Not trying to be a WA but you said yourself that it all worked before you took it apart and put it back together. You can't blame us for thinking it's human error.
I find no fault with suggesting human error! It happens! I'm sure the clutch plate is in the correct orientation. It seems inevitable a fourth split is in my future where I will do the following check the finger height using the straight edge and ruler as Hobo suggested. I can also replace the clutch release arm/shaft assembly to address any potential cracks. Of course, if I can also inspect the clutch plate orientation (again). I do have the initial clutch parts (set screw like finger tip adjusters), and another new clutch kit on the shelf. I also have another parts tractor I can harvest parts from that [i:2e8b015575]may [/i:2e8b015575]have a stock pressure plate assembly with crown bolt adjustable fingers. I'll definitely keep you all posted on what plays out. Now to get my helper on board with this all...
lastcowboy32
Well-known Member
YouTube may be your friend.
I needed to separate the engine and transmission on my 2006 Kia Spectra once, to put a scrap engine in it. I had a Hayne's manual for the car. I had the engine and transmission out and followed the instructions to the letter.
After I got all the bolts out, I and my son-in-law tried to separate the engine and transmission. With screwdrivers and little prybars, we easily got a little separation, but as soon as the separation got to a half inch or so? We could get no more, and the two pieces would snap back together.
My son-in-law and I both reviewed the steps in the manual numerous times. And tried splitting the two pieces numerous times. Every time, it would snap back together.
I was replacing the engine, so I didn't car about it. I hung the whole assembly from the loader on our compact tractor by the transmission with the engine hanging down. I proceeded to try to shake the engine off of the transmission by lowering the loader and abruptly stopping. Much to our son-in-law's chagrin. His comment to my wife was something along the lines of "The old man has snapped." Maybe he was right.
After this failed. I drove the tractor out of the shop with the whole thing dangling and inceremoniously deposited it in the snowbank by the garage. It was dark, cold and late. I parked the tractor and turned in for the night.
The next morning, I called the same place that sent me used engine to ask about a used transmission. While I was waiting for the answer, I searched YouTube for some videos.
It turns out... the throwout bearing is moved by a fork attached to a linkage that goes through the side of the transmission. That linkage is splined and a little lever goes onto it that the clutch pedal pulls. That little lever hits a boss on the side of the transmission, as the throwout bearing pushes its engaging fork up and out of the way as the transmission and engine are split.
The manual mentioned nothing about this. Maybe it was supposed to be obvious.
That little lever was held on by a cap bolt.
I grabbed a 12mm wrench, walked out to the snowbank, removed that little bolt... and the lever, and pulled the engine and transmission apart with my fingers, easier than splitting an English muffin.
Moral of the story?
You've gotten a lot of good advice in text format, but there would only need to be one little omission that you could be stumbling over. A YouTube video might give you the visual cue to figure out what you've been missing.
Maybe there is some sort of "clocking" of the little arm that the clutch pulls to engage the throwout bearing. I don't know...
I needed to separate the engine and transmission on my 2006 Kia Spectra once, to put a scrap engine in it. I had a Hayne's manual for the car. I had the engine and transmission out and followed the instructions to the letter.
After I got all the bolts out, I and my son-in-law tried to separate the engine and transmission. With screwdrivers and little prybars, we easily got a little separation, but as soon as the separation got to a half inch or so? We could get no more, and the two pieces would snap back together.
My son-in-law and I both reviewed the steps in the manual numerous times. And tried splitting the two pieces numerous times. Every time, it would snap back together.
I was replacing the engine, so I didn't car about it. I hung the whole assembly from the loader on our compact tractor by the transmission with the engine hanging down. I proceeded to try to shake the engine off of the transmission by lowering the loader and abruptly stopping. Much to our son-in-law's chagrin. His comment to my wife was something along the lines of "The old man has snapped." Maybe he was right.
After this failed. I drove the tractor out of the shop with the whole thing dangling and inceremoniously deposited it in the snowbank by the garage. It was dark, cold and late. I parked the tractor and turned in for the night.
The next morning, I called the same place that sent me used engine to ask about a used transmission. While I was waiting for the answer, I searched YouTube for some videos.
It turns out... the throwout bearing is moved by a fork attached to a linkage that goes through the side of the transmission. That linkage is splined and a little lever goes onto it that the clutch pedal pulls. That little lever hits a boss on the side of the transmission, as the throwout bearing pushes its engaging fork up and out of the way as the transmission and engine are split.
The manual mentioned nothing about this. Maybe it was supposed to be obvious.
That little lever was held on by a cap bolt.
I grabbed a 12mm wrench, walked out to the snowbank, removed that little bolt... and the lever, and pulled the engine and transmission apart with my fingers, easier than splitting an English muffin.
Moral of the story?
You've gotten a lot of good advice in text format, but there would only need to be one little omission that you could be stumbling over. A YouTube video might give you the visual cue to figure out what you've been missing.
Maybe there is some sort of "clocking" of the little arm that the clutch pulls to engage the throwout bearing. I don't know...
zuhnc
Member
- Location
- Macks Creek, MO
One of the OP's pictures shows what appears to be a spring. That "spring", as was pointed out, appears to not be in the correct place; it is oriented radially - center to outside. The manufacturer picture of the clutch disk shows all springs axially - around in a circle. There is the possibility of a spring coming out of the clutch disk assembly; I have experienced it. The devil to figure out. Something to check into. zuhnc
a32vickyhotrod
Member
Hobo has given you a this good link which shows the clutch linkage parts to concentrate on for problems. Concentrate in the pins.
https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?p=8594533&highlight=crack#8594533
You have said adjusting the linkage gives no change in movement of the throwout bearing. If the parts [u:37e6d3b4d0]outside[/u:37e6d3b4d0] of the case all move as they should and the center round shaft that goes into the case also moves , then I would be looking at the pin which holds the throwout fork on the round shaft inside the case to be sheared. I am basing this on the fact that you said operating the clutch, does not move the throwout bearing the needed distance to push on the pressure plate fingers.
https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?p=8594533&highlight=crack#8594533
You have said adjusting the linkage gives no change in movement of the throwout bearing. If the parts [u:37e6d3b4d0]outside[/u:37e6d3b4d0] of the case all move as they should and the center round shaft that goes into the case also moves , then I would be looking at the pin which holds the throwout fork on the round shaft inside the case to be sheared. I am basing this on the fact that you said operating the clutch, does not move the throwout bearing the needed distance to push on the pressure plate fingers.
(quoted from post at 18:39:19 07/15/22)
Okay, update: Steering wheel came off so easy that it would make anyone jealous. Not even 30 seconds. Just remove the acorn and the wheel was loose and came right off! So, with that dreaded operation out of the way, I attempted to remove the dash. It took me too long to figure out the throttle stick needed to come out. That took some WD-40 and angry words, but once it was out, the dash could be separated to allow access to the steering box mounting bolts. They came off nice and easy too. All in all, not too bad. I was really dreading the steering wheel. So, now I have a window and I'm still scratching my head...
Here is the clutch pedal in its "resting" position:
And here it is with the pedal all the way down and you can see witness marks showing it moved about 3/4 or a little more of an inch:
I hope your pictures made it when I quoted this. In the one picture I can see the throwout bearing sliding on the sleeve about 3/4". If it's moving that far and not pushing the fingers something is wrong right there. You should be able to adjust to the point that the throwout bearing is almost touching the fingers with no pressure on the pedal. If you're looking right at the linkage while you operate the clutch pedal it should be obvious is something was cracked or a pin was sheared.
follwing this post about this clutch that will not work it sounds to me like the problem is probly in the pedal and linkage or somwhere betweeen the throw out and back
those wooden wedges generaly are stuck in there when it is biult i installed a clutch in a 4020 a few weeks ago it came with some steel key stock doing the same thing
as the wood. they just fall out when you tighen it down and then you just throw them away
those wooden wedges generaly are stuck in there when it is biult i installed a clutch in a 4020 a few weeks ago it came with some steel key stock doing the same thing
as the wood. they just fall out when you tighen it down and then you just throw them away
(quoted from post at 10:58:56 07/21/22)(quoted from post at 18:39:19 07/15/22)
Okay, update: Steering wheel came off so easy that it would make anyone jealous. Not even 30 seconds. Just remove the acorn and the wheel was loose and came right off! So, with that dreaded operation out of the way, I attempted to remove the dash. It took me too long to figure out the throttle stick needed to come out. That took some WD-40 and angry words, but once it was out, the dash could be separated to allow access to the steering box mounting bolts. They came off nice and easy too. All in all, not too bad. I was really dreading the steering wheel. So, now I have a window and I'm still scratching my head...
Here is the clutch pedal in its "resting" position:
And here it is with the pedal all the way down and you can see witness marks showing it moved about 3/4 or a little more of an inch:
I hope your pictures made it when I quoted this. In the one picture I can see the throwout bearing sliding on the sleeve about 3/4". If it's moving that far and not pushing the fingers something is wrong right there. You should be able to adjust to the point that the throwout bearing is almost touching the fingers with no pressure on the pedal. If you're looking right at the linkage while you operate the clutch pedal it should be obvious is something was cracked or a pin was sheared.
[size=18:7d54b041e7][color=red:7d54b041e7]RESOLUTION[/color:7d54b041e7][/size:7d54b041e7]
The clutch plate was NOT in backwards ever. There were no cracks in the shaft/pins/arm. The clutch parts were the correct parts and not defective.
I had my helper over again fully anticipating splitting the tractor. I went over every gem of knowledge, manuals, diagrams etc with them and brainstormed. We decided to attempt to adjust the clutch release arm once again just for the heck of it. Somehow, this time, together, we achieved the adjustment we needed. I wish I knew what the magic was, because I spent a solid half day and a an hour or so on another day on my own trying to get it right to no avail, and I wouldn't classify myself as mechanically inept. [b:7d54b041e7]*shrug*[/b:7d54b041e7] More hands and eyes to keep everything together?
At least it is resolved, and it wasn't the clutch plate in backwards. A big thanks to all who provided guidance and persisted along with me.
showcrop
Well-known Member
(quoted from post at 16:58:14 07/27/22)(quoted from post at 10:58:56 07/21/22)(quoted from post at 18:39:19 07/15/22)
Okay, update: Steering wheel came off so easy that it would make anyone jealous. Not even 30 seconds. Just remove the acorn and the wheel was loose and came right off! So, with that dreaded operation out of the way, I attempted to remove the dash. It took me too long to figure out the throttle stick needed to come out. That took some WD-40 and angry words, but once it was out, the dash could be separated to allow access to the steering box mounting bolts. They came off nice and easy too. All in all, not too bad. I was really dreading the steering wheel. So, now I have a window and I'm still scratching my head...
Here is the clutch pedal in its "resting" position:
And here it is with the pedal all the way down and you can see witness marks showing it moved about 3/4 or a little more of an inch:
I hope your pictures made it when I quoted this. In the one picture I can see the throwout bearing sliding on the sleeve about 3/4". If it's moving that far and not pushing the fingers something is wrong right there. You should be able to adjust to the point that the throwout bearing is almost touching the fingers with no pressure on the pedal. If you're looking right at the linkage while you operate the clutch pedal it should be obvious is something was cracked or a pin was sheared.
[size=18:f485fdaf30][color=red:f485fdaf30]RESOLUTION[/color:f485fdaf30][/size:f485fdaf30]
The clutch plate was NOT in backwards ever. There were no cracks in the shaft/pins/arm. The clutch parts were the correct parts and not defective.
I had my helper over again fully anticipating splitting the tractor. I went over every gem of knowledge, manuals, diagrams etc with them and brainstormed. We decided to attempt to adjust the clutch release arm once again just for the heck of it. Somehow, this time, together, we achieved the adjustment we needed. I wish I knew what the magic was, because I spent a solid half day and a an hour or so on another day on my own trying to get it right to no avail, and I wouldn't classify myself as mechanically inept. [b:f485fdaf30]*shrug*[/b:f485fdaf30] More hands and eyes to keep everything together?
At least it is resolved, and it wasn't the clutch plate in backwards. A big thanks to all who provided guidance and persisted along with me.
The fact remains: To prevent this problem, as Hobo advised, measure and verify distance from release bearing to fingers before assembly.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
(quoted from post at 17:29:21 07/28/22)(quoted from post at 16:58:14 07/27/22)(quoted from post at 10:58:56 07/21/22)(quoted from post at 18:39:19 07/15/22)
Okay, update: Steering wheel came off so easy that it would make anyone jealous. Not even 30 seconds. Just remove the acorn and the wheel was loose and came right off! So, with that dreaded operation out of the way, I attempted to remove the dash. It took me too long to figure out the throttle stick needed to come out. That took some WD-40 and angry words, but once it was out, the dash could be separated to allow access to the steering box mounting bolts. They came off nice and easy too. All in all, not too bad. I was really dreading the steering wheel. So, now I have a window and I'm still scratching my head...
Here is the clutch pedal in its "resting" position:
And here it is with the pedal all the way down and you can see witness marks showing it moved about 3/4 or a little more of an inch:
I hope your pictures made it when I quoted this. In the one picture I can see the throwout bearing sliding on the sleeve about 3/4". If it's moving that far and not pushing the fingers something is wrong right there. You should be able to adjust to the point that the throwout bearing is almost touching the fingers with no pressure on the pedal. If you're looking right at the linkage while you operate the clutch pedal it should be obvious is something was cracked or a pin was sheared.
[size=18:352f74993f][color=red:352f74993f]RESOLUTION[/color:352f74993f][/size:352f74993f]
The clutch plate was NOT in backwards ever. There were no cracks in the shaft/pins/arm. The clutch parts were the correct parts and not defective.
I had my helper over again fully anticipating splitting the tractor. I went over every gem of knowledge, manuals, diagrams etc with them and brainstormed. We decided to attempt to adjust the clutch release arm once again just for the heck of it. Somehow, this time, together, we achieved the adjustment we needed. I wish I knew what the magic was, because I spent a solid half day and a an hour or so on another day on my own trying to get it right to no avail, and I wouldn't classify myself as mechanically inept. [b:352f74993f]*shrug*[/b:352f74993f] More hands and eyes to keep everything together?
At least it is resolved, and it wasn't the clutch plate in backwards. A big thanks to all who provided guidance and persisted along with me.
The fact remains: To prevent this problem, as Hobo advised, measure and verify distance from release bearing to fingers before assembly.
Plus the book is completely wrong on how to properly adjust a clutch : (... As is all that post how to do it by the book...
Pedal height is just an indicator it has little to do with proper adjustment.
This post confirms that if he had taken out all the slack then added a little clearance/slack at the clutch arm that goes thru the transmission case life would have been good...
I am trilled he got it without other issues : )
lastcowboy32
Well-known Member
I would argue that the manual's preoccupation with pedal height comes more from the fact that the 9N and 2N had the crazy design flaw of having brake pedals on both sides of the transmission.
Then, they go to great lengths in the manual and adjustments to try to make it so that you can push the brake and clutch pedal on the left side together, which forces the clutch and brake to both optimally disengage/engage and the exact same pedal depression.
For this to work as intended would, in my experience require constant fiddling with the clutch linkage and brake adjusters.
So, yeah, if you are worried about the clutch, adjust the clutch to work, regardless of pedal height and such. Once it works, you can always go back and adjust the little threaded turnbuckle and adjust your brakes, if you want to try to get the two pedals to work together as intended.
I went through all of that when we put new brakes and axle seals on the tractor about three years ago. I think the pedals worked together for a couple of days...before needing adjustment... and then they worked again together for a little while... before needing adjustment.
After a few cycles of that, I'm back to just pushing the clutch by itself to activate the clutch and the right brake alone to stop the tractor.
Every so often, I shift into neutral, ignore the clutch and press both brake pedals... just to make sure they both still work.
It's a crappy design with all sorts of manual and adjustment gyrations to try to compensate.
Then, they go to great lengths in the manual and adjustments to try to make it so that you can push the brake and clutch pedal on the left side together, which forces the clutch and brake to both optimally disengage/engage and the exact same pedal depression.
For this to work as intended would, in my experience require constant fiddling with the clutch linkage and brake adjusters.
So, yeah, if you are worried about the clutch, adjust the clutch to work, regardless of pedal height and such. Once it works, you can always go back and adjust the little threaded turnbuckle and adjust your brakes, if you want to try to get the two pedals to work together as intended.
I went through all of that when we put new brakes and axle seals on the tractor about three years ago. I think the pedals worked together for a couple of days...before needing adjustment... and then they worked again together for a little while... before needing adjustment.
After a few cycles of that, I'm back to just pushing the clutch by itself to activate the clutch and the right brake alone to stop the tractor.
Every so often, I shift into neutral, ignore the clutch and press both brake pedals... just to make sure they both still work.
It's a crappy design with all sorts of manual and adjustment gyrations to try to compensate.
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