1964 4000 with 172 CI gas stalls when hot wont restart

[showcrop]

(quoted from post at 20:38:49 05/19/23) I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your 3000 is a completely different tractor than his 4000.
The gas caps will interchange, but the fuel systems are night and day different.
I just posted a picture of my line up of tractors. If you look at the 4000 on the left and the 2000 in the middle, you will see what I mean.
Keith

I wouldn't call it bad news. Simply news.

 

[vtford800]

Apologies again for my confusing the issue with 3000 fuel system. I envy you your gravity feed, actually!

But the filter screen(s) and sediment issues will still apply if there's a screen either in the tank's fuel shutoff valve, or sediment bowl (if there is one). and of course sediment in the carb,

Also the need for constant downhill routing of the fuel line, no uphills, and the protection from heat (via routing and heat shields). As are the possibilities of a bit of something caught in a line.

One thing I didn't mention is a occasionally sticking float valve in the carb.

Because your problem is intermittent, a test of anything might show no problem when you test it, but still be a problem when the tractor is working. For instance checking the fuel flow by opening a line after the tractor has been sitting. Since it normally starts and runs well after it's been sitting, it is to be expected it is getting fuel through the line at that time.

If you thoroughly clean the carb and jets, and check that the float and float valve are operating properly, try to devise tests that occur right when the motor stalls out. That's why a stir of the tank in my case right after a stall proved to me that the issue was due to moving debris eventually clogging the tank outlet screen, yet drifting back down when the motor was stopped.

Intermittent problems are tough to pin down......

 

[Sean in PA]

Also the need for constant downhill routing of the fuel line, no uphills

That is not necessarily true for a gravity feed system. As long as the carb is lower than the level of fuel in the tank then it will flow once you get the flow started, just like siphoning gasoline. As long as you don't run the line so that the highest point ever goes above the level of the fluid in the tank, then the line can go down and up as many time as necessary to route it where you want.

 

[govsux]

(quoted from post at 16:30:12 05/21/23)
Apologies again for my confusing the issue with 3000 fuel system. I envy you your gravity feed, actually!

But the filter screen(s) and sediment issues will still apply if there's a screen either in the tank's fuel shutoff valve, or sediment bowl (if there is one). and of course sediment in the carb,

Also the need for constant downhill routing of the fuel line, no uphills, and the protection from heat (via routing and heat shields). As are the possibilities of a bit of something caught in a line.

One thing I didn't mention is a occasionally sticking float valve in the carb.

Because your problem is intermittent, a test of anything might show no problem when you test it, but still be a problem when the tractor is working. For instance checking the fuel flow by opening a line after the tractor has been sitting. Since it normally starts and runs well after it's been sitting, it is to be expected it is getting fuel through the line at that time.

If you thoroughly clean the carb and jets, and check that the float and float valve are operating properly, try to devise tests that occur right when the motor stalls out. That's why a stir of the tank in my case right after a stall proved to me that the issue was due to moving debris eventually clogging the tank outlet screen, yet drifting back down when the motor was stopped.

Intermittent problems are tough to pin down......

Hey no problem I appreciate your reply. Yes many suggestions are valid across many platforms. No fuel... no run. ha One other possibility I might look into as well is loose intake. I've had other engines where that turned out to be the case. A 2 stoke motorcycle. Took me a long time to figure that out. Funny thing that clear fuel filter I have is totally full of fuel after it's been sitting not running. After it runs awhile it's almost completely filled with air. That really doesn't make much sense unless there is a restriction in the tank and it's able to suck some air from a not so great hose connection. I did blow back through the hose to the tank seemed to easily blow air inside the tank so if it's plugged in the tank must be stuff floating around. At any rate I can only work on this thing on the weekends when I go to my cottage so next weekend I hope to look into poor fuel flow or loose intake. If neither seems to be the case I ordered a carb casket kit I'll rebuild the carb. Sooner or later the reason will be found and fixed!!... will keep ya posted.

 

[HFJ]

gov, a word about inline filters: i don't think i've ever seen one that appeared full of gas. i have seen them work at various levels of gas + air. i've seen one that always looks like 95% air and yet works fine. not really sure how, but it does. since yours lets gas thru, i'd agree it's not the problem

 

[showcrop]

(quoted from post at 20:28:01 05/21/23) gov, a word about inline filters: i don't think i've ever seen one that appeared full of gas. i have seen them work at various levels of gas + air. i've seen one that always looks like 95% air and yet works fine. not really sure how, but it does. since yours lets gas thru, i'd agree it's not the problem

I posted the same thing Friday about the filter but govsux seems to be fixated on having that filter full to the exclusion of most suggestions that people are offering. His problems started with running a new fuel line and installing that filter.

 

[Sean in PA]

I am guessing that the filter he installed is not designed for gravity feed, or else it doesn't have enough flow for the requirements of that engine, or both.

 

[Eman85]

Did you ever try removing the gas cap when it died?
At this point I believe I would drain the tank and drop the shutoff valve and start cleaning from there. Put the fuel system back like Ford built it with clean screens. Not sure on this carb but some have a screen in the carb where the fitting screws in, remove and check that.
You say you are absolutely, positive it has spark when it dies and won't restart?

 

[govsux]

(quoted from post at 04:28:01 05/22/23) gov, a word about inline filters: i don't think i've ever seen one that appeared full of gas. i have seen them work at various levels of gas + air. i've seen one that always looks like 95% air and yet works fine. not really sure how, but it does. since yours lets gas thru, i'd agree it's not the problem

I know what you mean it's not unusual to see some air at the top of the filter. But it does seem odd it goes from virtually filled with fuel to almost all air. Seems like this sort of lends itself to the gas cap / no vent theory. I take it the gas cap should not be air tight when closed as there's no other way for air to enter the tank. I think next time it dies I will slowly open the gas cap see if I hear a hiss of air exerting the tank. I think somebody might have mentioned this earlier.

 

[govsux]

(quoted from post at 15:17:08 05/22/23) Did you ever try removing the gas cap when it died?

No but I will do that for sure thanks

 

[govsux]

(quoted from post at 12:14:55 05/22/23)

(quoted from post at 20:28:01 05/21/23) gov, a word about inline filters: i don't think i've ever seen one that appeared full of gas. i have seen them work at various levels of gas + air. i've seen one that always looks like 95% air and yet works fine. not really sure how, but it does. since yours lets gas thru, i'd agree it's not the problem

I posted the same thing Friday about the filter but govsux seems to be fixated on having that filter full to the exclusion of most suggestions that people are offering. His problems started with running a new fuel line and installing that filter.

I bought this thing in 2006 put the filter on not long after that only recently started having this problem so I don't think that's the issue. I was going to eliminate it as mentioned but I decided to check fuel flow and it flowed like a race horse out of the filter. I didn't let it flow very long so perhaps if I did I would see it slow down because of a vacuum being created in the tank.. But it's not a fuel filter issue as near as I can tell. If you can imagine how much fuel would flow out of a 5/16 fuel hose totally unobstructed that's what it looked like coming out of the filter. LOTS of flow. It's not a small filter. 2'"long probably 1 1/4" ish wide. I bet the carb needs cleaned. Been since 2006. Between varnish build up and the stupid ethanol in the fuel it's probably time for cleaning. Or the gas cap ins't letting in air. I take it the cap suppose to let air in correct?? No other way for air to replace the used fuel that I can tell.

 

[HFJ]

(quoted from post at 11:49:05 05/22/23) I take it the cap suppose to let air in correct?? No other way for air to replace the used fuel that I can tell.

i don't know about your tractor, but on Ns, the cap is not supposed to be letting air in. that job is assigned to a vent which is essentially unserviceable if it gets plugged, and that's not rare. loosening the cap allows air to come in where it once had no need to enter. if the problem goes away at that point, people either get a vented cap or vent their existing cap.

 

[govsux]

(quoted from post at 16:52:16 05/22/23)

(quoted from post at 11:49:05 05/22/23) I take it the cap suppose to let air in correct?? No other way for air to replace the used fuel that I can tell.

i don't know about your tractor, but on Ns, the cap is not supposed to be letting air in. that job is assigned to a vent which is essentially unserviceable if it gets plugged, and that's not rare. loosening the cap allows air to come in where it once had no need to enter. if the problem goes away at that point, people either get a vented cap or vent their existing cap.

As far as I know my tank has no vent. it's a 1964 industrial 4000 however I wouldn't be surprised this isn't the original tank it's had a lot of things done long before I got it. There's nothing on top of the tank but the gas cap.

 

[vtford800]

(quoted from post at 15:49:05 05/22/23)
I bought this thing in 2006 put the filter on not long after that only recently started having this problem so I don't think that's the issue.

Or the gas cap ins't letting in air. I take it the cap suppose to let air in correct?? No other way for air to replace the used fuel that I can tell.

If it has been about 16 years since the filter was new, I'd say definitely time to replace it. Also the rubber lines that were added. .

Also make sure that the filter was installed in the correct orientation. Generally the fuel should flow around the outside of the paper element, through the element and then to the carb.

If the filter was not marked with the correct direction for installation, The pointy end should be at the tank side and the wider flat end should be at the carb side (the outlet). And ideally the filter should be oriented vertically.

If you install it backwards, all the dirt and and any rubber particles from a 16 year old deteriorated hose will be trapped inside the element space, as will any bubble, either air or vapor (as in a lock). And the dirt won't be visible outside of the element.

I know you say you think that the filter is fine, because of the good rate of flow through it when it hasn't been working, but again, remember, that is the time when everything works well. If AFTER working for awhile, the air gets in, or loose particles get trapped, or the filter gets hot and a vapor bubble forms inside while you are working, is the flow good then?

A backwards installed filter would exaggerate these problems.

And of course test the plugged tank vent possibility next time you're working and the tractor is stalled. Loosen the cap and try starting the tractor immediately. This has been suggested by several people before.

Finally be open to the possibility that there are multiple issues -- that was the case for me. Replacing lines cleaning screens, making new gaskets, and making sure the carb was in perfect working condition, restored all reliability.

This post was edited by vtford800 on 05/22/2023 at 10:51 am.

 

[govsux]

(quoted from post at 18:37:03 05/22/23)

(quoted from post at 15:49:05 05/22/23)
I bought this thing in 2006 put the filter on not long after that only recently started having this problem so I don't think that's the issue.

Or the gas cap ins't letting in air. I take it the cap suppose to let air in correct?? No other way for air to replace the used fuel that I can tell.

If it has been about 16 years since the filter was new, I'd say definitely time to replace it. Also the rubber lines that were added. .

Also make sure that the filter was installed in the correct orientation. Generally the fuel should flow around the outside of the paper element, through the element and then to the carb.

If the filter was not marked with the correct direction for installation, The pointy end should be at the tank side and the wider flat end should be at the carb side (the outlet). And ideally the filter should be oriented vertically.

If you install it backwards, all the dirt and and any rubber particles from a 16 year old deteriorated hose will be trapped inside the element space, as will any bubble, either air or vapor (as in a lock). And the dirt won't be visible outside of the element.

I know you say you think that the filter is fine, because of the good rate of flow through it when it hasn't been working, but again, remember, that is the time when everything works well. If AFTER working for awhile, the air gets in, or loose particles get trapped, or the filter gets hot and a vapor bubble forms inside while you are working, is the flow good then?

A backwards installed filter would exaggerate these problems.

And of course test the plugged tank vent possibility next time you're working and the tractor is stalled. Loosen the cap and try starting the tractor immediately. This has been suggested by several people before.

Finally be open to the possibility that there are multiple issues -- that was the case for me. Replacing lines cleaning screens, making new gaskets, and making sure the carb was in perfect working condition, restored all reliability.

This post was edited by vtford800 on 05/22/2023 at 10:51 am.

Yup filter is on the correct way. I swear my tank has no vent if it does I don't know where it is.

 

[vtford800]

Then it's in the cap. Is the cap original or aftermarket? In any case do the suggested test by running til it stalls, loosen the cap and try to re-start.

Definitely replace the fuel filter. If the lines are old rubber, replace them. Make sure all runs are downhill, and ideally the filter mounted as near vertical as possible. Be sure runs are either away from heat sources or protected with a heat shield.

And as mentioned before, if the fuel tank shutoff valve in the 4000 has a screen filter inside the tank (like the 3000 does) run the tank empty, then remove the shutoff valve and clean the screen, rinse out the tank, and reinstall the shutoff valve.

Clean the screen in the sediment bowl if it has one, checking the condition of the gasket.

Remove and clean or rebuild the carb, or replace it.

That's about it for the fuel system.

 

[MJMJ]

I had the exact same problem with my gas 3000 one year. Turned out it was the petcock (shut off valve) full of bugs and debris because the screen doesn't always stay in place. It would let some gas through, but eventually it would run out. Let it sit for 15 minutes and it would fire right up. If you didn't let the fuel run for long, it could still be the problem. So like mentioned above, siphon out the gas and check the valve. It only takes a few minutes.

This post was edited by MJMJ on 05/23/2023 at 08:09 am.

 

[govsux]

(quoted from post at 15:17:08 05/22/23)
You say you are absolutely, positive it has spark when it dies and won't restart?

Well I figured it out. yes I did test for spark after it dies and it did have some spark but yellow... not great... not blue is true. I believe I had TWO problems both at fixed. First it would die because I had a loop pf sorts going on with the fuel hose and filter. It could in certain high use situations go so lean it would die. I fixed that by re-routing the line and filter so it's all down hill so to speak to the carb. But here's the real culprit on it not starting .... THE STARTER was bad. When it's hot the windings must be shorting out. Not enough to not work at all but enough it draws too much from the 12v battery to produce a good spark. I put a new starter on and it cranks twice as fast as it ever did. I didn't realize the starter was slow I never heard it any other way. So today I use it hard moved 20 yards of sand it got up to full temp never died and if I shut it of it would start instantly with a bump of the ignition switch just as it should. Anyway thanks everybody for pitching in you can never stop learning about these machines the strangest things can sometimes happen that throw you off. I should have waited until it was cloudy to test for spark I know i saw spark but it just wasn't enough to run. Bottom line... it needed better fuel line set up and a new starter.