2n Timing/points question?

[DZG300]

Ok fellas sorry for the late reply but its been a busy week.

Finally got to go work on it yesterday.

Stuck new distributor on, hooked up plug wires, it ran EXCELLENT....

For about 2 minutes. Before it died out in the yard again. Just like someone shut the key off. No spark.

What in the world is going on here? I noticed the coil wire connector was iffy, replaced that. Got it to kinda run at like 100rpm for 20 seconds on maybe 2 cylinders after extended cranking.

The ceramic resistor was blazing hot....not smoking, but burned my finger. Is this normal?


Is it wired right? I cant find a 12v diagram....just factory setup ones. Its got 2 wires coming from the ignition switch. One im guessing is power in, then one running to the ceramic resistor. Then from the resistor there is a brown wire that runs to the coil.

However there is an orange wire that wasnt hooked up to begin with, that looks fairly new, that comes off the factory ballast resistor. I have no idea what its for. Could that be the issue? Where the heck would it go? Its only long enough to reach the ceramic resistor.

Im literally pulling my hair out on this thing. Everything is new besides the ignition switch (which is working, tested) and the factory ballast resistor.

Please advise...lol.

 

[DZG300]

Ok finally found a diagram....does this look legit to you guys?

If this is right....i think i got the wires hooked up wrong....and probably cooking the coil in the process?

The wire off the ignition switch should go to the factory resistor, then the mystrry orange wire i have should go to the ceramic resistor, then the brown coil wire from ceramic resistor to coil.

I didnt see anywhere else on the factory resistor to hook another wire though....maybe i missed it?

Or am i on totally the wrong track?

 

[will-max dairy]

Ok finally found a diagram....does this look legit to you guys?

View attachment 96551


If this is right....i think i got the wires hooked up wrong....and probably cooking the coil in the process?

The wire off the ignition switch should go to the factory resistor, then the mystrry orange wire i have should go to the ceramic resistor, then the brown coil wire from ceramic resistor to coil.

I didnt see anywhere else on the factory resistor to hook another wire though....maybe i missed it?

Or am i on totally the wrong track?

Ballast resistors... ballast resistors... and then, in a moment of genius, somewhere around 1960-ish... many manufacturers, including Ford, started using "resistor wire" between ignition switch and the coil... and a jumper off of the solenoid to redirect pure 12V to the coil during starting...

But I digress...

Anyway,

Here are some possibilities to consider:


A: When you updated to a 12V system, you bought a 12V coil. A 12V coil will have a higher internal resistance. Your ballast resistor (R1 in your diagram) is heating up (going to higher resistance); and now the total resistance of your 12V coil + hot ballast resistor means that you aren't getting much current through your ignition system, and your spark gets weak/absent.

B: When you updated to a 12V system, you still used a 6V coil... which would need the factory ballast resistor AND another external resistor (R2) in your diagram, in order to limit current through the coil. Without R2, your ballast resistor R1 is getting even hotter than normal, and even with its high resistance, the current to your coil is too much; and you're burning out your coil. A burned out coil will possibly "recover" and run marginally when it's cold; only to short out and completely fail when hot.

C: You actually have a "12V breakerless module"... which... I have no idea what that is and will make no comment, other than... if you do... follow the recommended wiring instructions...

D: myriad other things that I haven't even listed.

As for the sanity check regarding the temperature of the ballast resistor... even under normal circumstances, both R1 AND R2 will be either "hot to the touch" or "too hot to touch"... depending on the person. So, I don't get much from your fingertip temperature measurement. Sorry.

Hope I've helped a little.

 

[Non-farmer]

Call Pertronix, assuming that's the brand you bought.

 

[will-max dairy]

Ballast resistors... ballast resistors... and then, in a moment of genius, somewhere around 1960-ish... many manufacturers, including Ford, started using "resistor wire" between ignition switch and the coil... and a jumper off of the solenoid to redirect pure 12V to the coil during starting...

But I digress...

Anyway,

Here are some possibilities to consider:


A: When you updated to a 12V system, you bought a 12V coil. A 12V coil will have a higher internal resistance. Your ballast resistor (R1 in your diagram) is heating up (going to higher resistance); and now the total resistance of your 12V coil + hot ballast resistor means that you aren't getting much current through your ignition system, and your spark gets weak/absent.

B: When you updated to a 12V system, you still used a 6V coil... which would need the factory ballast resistor AND another external resistor (R2) in your diagram, in order to limit current through the coil. Without R2, your ballast resistor R1 is getting even hotter than normal, and even with its high resistance, the current to your coil is too much; and you're burning out your coil. A burned out coil will possibly "recover" and run marginally when it's cold; only to short out and completely fail when hot.

C: You actually have a "12V breakerless module"... which... I have no idea what that is and will make no comment, other than... if you do... follow the recommended wiring instructions...

D: myriad other things that I haven't even listed.

As for the sanity check regarding the temperature of the ballast resistor... even under normal circumstances, both R1 AND R2 will be either "hot to the touch" or "too hot to touch"... depending on the person. So, I don't get much from your fingertip temperature measurement. Sorry.

Hope I've helped a little.

To clarify... I understand the theory of a "12V breakerless module"... but there may be different brand to brand variations in what that means... any wiring recommendations for them should come from the instructions for the particular model used, if any.

 

[DZG300]

Ballast resistors... ballast resistors... and then, in a moment of genius, somewhere around 1960-ish... many manufacturers, including Ford, started using "resistor wire" between ignition switch and the coil... and a jumper off of the solenoid to redirect pure 12V to the coil during starting...

But I digress...

Anyway,

Here are some possibilities to consider:


A: When you updated to a 12V system, you bought a 12V coil. A 12V coil will have a higher internal resistance. Your ballast resistor (R1 in your diagram) is heating up (going to higher resistance); and now the total resistance of your 12V coil + hot ballast resistor means that you aren't getting much current through your ignition system, and your spark gets weak/absent.

B: When you updated to a 12V system, you still used a 6V coil... which would need the factory ballast resistor AND another external resistor (R2) in your diagram, in order to limit current through the coil. Without R2, your ballast resistor R1 is getting even hotter than normal, and even with its high resistance, the current to your coil is too much; and you're burning out your coil. A burned out coil will possibly "recover" and run marginally when it's cold; only to short out and completely fail when hot.

C: You actually have a "12V breakerless module"... which... I have no idea what that is and will make no comment, other than... if you do... follow the recommended wiring instructions...

D: myriad other things that I haven't even listed.

As for the sanity check regarding the temperature of the ballast resistor... even under normal circumstances, both R1 AND R2 will be either "hot to the touch" or "too hot to touch"... depending on the person. So, I don't get much from your fingertip temperature measurement. Sorry.

Hope I've helped a little.

Call Pertronix, assuming that's the brand you bought.

I didnt do the 12v conversion. I bought it that way.

No idea what brand it is. Seems pretty standard with the ceramic resistor and GM 1 wire alternator.

Im used a 6v coil....thinking that was correct for how it was wired.

Im gonna go investigate today. I think basically what i did was bypass "R1", which allowed "R2" to do all the work, and it couldnt cut voltage enough for the 6v coil on its own, causing coil to heat up and croak.

It acts just like a dead coil...which would make sense if its frying itself


Yes, to hot to touch is subjective, but before the new distributor i figured the fact the points wernt opening made it smoke. It didnt smoke this time...but got super hot

 

[olddavid]

Yes, to hot to touch is subjective, but before the new distributor i figured the fact the points wernt opening made it smoke. It didnt smoke this time...but got super hot

Wait a minute. Your first post mentioned the points not lining up, so I am thinking you have a point type distributor; not electronic. We're getting sidetracked here by the posted diagram.

 

[will-max dairy]

I didnt do the 12v conversion. I bought it that way.

No idea what brand it is. Seems pretty standard with the ceramic resistor and GM 1 wire alternator.

Im used a 6v coil....thinking that was correct for how it was wired.

Im gonna go investigate today. I think basically what i did was bypass "R1", which allowed "R2" to do all the work, and it couldnt cut voltage enough for the 6v coil on its own, causing coil to heat up and croak.

It acts just like a dead coil...which would make sense if its frying itself


Yes, to hot to touch is subjective, but before the new distributor i figured the fact the points wernt opening made it smoke. It didnt smoke this time...but got super hot

I'm going to go out on a limb and say... if you bought a new distributor assembly...it's probably original-style, with points inside... not a breakerless module.

 

[will-max dairy]

Wait a minute. Your first post mentioned the points not lining up, so I am thinking you have a point type distributor; not electronic. We're getting sidetracked here by the posted diagram.

I agree... a "12V conversion" and a "breakerless ignition conversion" are two different things...

Re-reading the thread... and also reading that a "new" distributor was installed... leads me to believe that we're dealing with good old points here... and the breakerless ignition subject is (my guess) a moot point.

 

[will-max dairy]

I didnt do the 12v conversion. I bought it that way.

No idea what brand it is. Seems pretty standard with the ceramic resistor and GM 1 wire alternator.

Im used a 6v coil....thinking that was correct for how it was wired.

Im gonna go investigate today. I think basically what i did was bypass "R1", which allowed "R2" to do all the work, and it couldnt cut voltage enough for the 6v coil on its own, causing coil to heat up and croak.

It acts just like a dead coil...which would make sense if its frying itself


Yes, to hot to touch is subjective, but before the new distributor i figured the fact the points wernt opening made it smoke. It didnt smoke this time...but got super hot

If your old distributor actually DID get the points stuck closed, that could have degraded the coil to the point where you may have good resistors, good wiring, but a degraded coil; which may have ultimately failed with the new distributor...

So... there IS a possibility that your wiring and resistors are correct, and you just, now, have a completely failed coil.

Ignition problems... always fun...

 

[DZG300]

If your old distributor actually DID get the points stuck closed, that could have degraded the coil to the point where you may have good resistors, good wiring, but a degraded coil; which may have ultimately failed with the new distributor...

So... there IS a possibility that your wiring and resistors are correct, and you just, now, have a completely failed coil.

Ignition problems... always fun...

Yes the new distributor is points. I do plan to go breakerless at some point but now i just need this thing to work lol.

It also came with a new coil.

The reason the points wouldnt open is because the cam lobes on the old distributor were totally flat.

Anyways...

I investigated. It looks like someone at some point had the brown coil wire hooked to the factory resistor. There is a broken connector on one end with a tiny piece of brown wire sticking off it, and it looks way to new to be from 1945.

So im wondering if the coil that was on it when i bought it was 12v, and wired up with just one resistor. It took a dump and i put a new 6v on it, and it got fried.

I ordered a new factory style resistor. Im going to wire everything per the diagram and go from there.

 

[Jim.ME]

Ballast resistors... ballast resistors... and then, in a moment of genius, somewhere around 1960-ish... many manufacturers, including Ford, started using "resistor wire" between ignition switch and the coil... and a jumper off of the solenoid to redirect pure 12V to the coil during starting...

But I digress...

Anyway,

Here are some possibilities to consider:


A: When you updated to a 12V system, you bought a 12V coil. A 12V coil will have a higher internal resistance. Your ballast resistor (R1 in your diagram) is heating up (going to higher resistance); and now the total resistance of your 12V coil + hot ballast resistor means that you aren't getting much current through your ignition system, and your spark gets weak/absent.

B: When you updated to a 12V system, you still used a 6V coil... which would need the factory ballast resistor AND another external resistor (R2) in your diagram, in order to limit current through the coil. Without R2, your ballast resistor R1 is getting even hotter than normal, and even with its high resistance, the current to your coil is too much; and you're burning out your coil. A burned out coil will possibly "recover" and run marginally when it's cold; only to short out and completely fail when hot.

C: You actually have a "12V breakerless module"... which... I have no idea what that is and will make no comment, other than... if you do... follow the recommended wiring instructions...

D: myriad other things that I haven't even listed.

As for the sanity check regarding the temperature of the ballast resistor... even under normal circumstances, both R1 AND R2 will be either "hot to the touch" or "too hot to touch"... depending on the person. So, I don't get much from your fingertip temperature measurement. Sorry.

Hope I've helped a little.

It has been discussed here many times before. The "square" 12-volt coils for the front mount distributors need to retain the original dash mounted ballast resistor with junction terminal. They do not need a second porcelain type resistor as would be added when a 6-volt coil is used in a 12-volt system.

 

[will-max dairy]

If your old distributor actually DID get the points stuck closed, that could have degraded the coil to the point where you may have good resistors, good wiring, but a degraded coil; which may have ultimately failed with the new distributor...

So... there IS a possibility that your wiring and resistors are correct, and you just, now, have a completely failed coil.

Ignition problems... always fun...

But... take this with a grain of salt... as I think you bought a new coil at some point, but I'm not sure when it was installed... before new distributor? with new distributor? after new distributor?

But, now, since you may or may not be messing with yet another coil... one thing to watch for is the tab on the coil...

When I rebuilt the engine on our 2N... I bought a new coil...

The first tries at cranking the new engine to check ignition failed to produce spark... even with all brand new ignition components...

After troubleshooting, I found that the tab on my new coil was bent in a little bit... must not have been making contact... probably happened during shipping.

I re-sprung that tab... and suddenly I had spark...

 

[DZG300]

Wait a minute. Your first post mentioned the points not lining up, so I am thinking you have a point type distributor; not electronic. We're getting sidetracked here by the posted diagram.

Sorry, yes, its points. That diagram is either/ or i think

 

[DZG300]

It has been discussed here many times before. The "square" 12-volt coils for the front mount distributors need to retain the original dash mounted ballast resistor with junction terminal. They do not need a second porcelain type resistor as would be added when a 6-volt coil is used in a 12-volt system.

Right. But i bought a 6v coil. I think possibly the one i replaced (that was on it when i bought it) was 12.

 

[DZG300]

But... take this with a grain of salt... as I think you bought a new coil at some point, but I'm not sure when it was installed... before new distributor? with new distributor? after new distributor?

But, now, since you may or may not be messing with yet another coil... one thing to watch for is the tab on the coil...

When I rebuilt the engine on our 2N... I bought a new coil...

The first tries at cranking the new engine to check ignition failed to produce spark... even with all brand new ignition components...

After troubleshooting, I found that the tab on my new coil was bent in a little bit... must not have been making contact... probably happened during shipping.

I re-sprung that tab... and suddenly I had spark...

I replaced the coil only (with old distributor) first. Then it quit again.

Thats when i pulled the old distributor and seen it was FUBAR.

So thats when i ordered the new distributor that came with a new coil.

Then it died again.

But i think, hopefully, i got it figured out this time. Ill know hopefully next week when i can wrench on it again.

Electrical isnt my strong suit but seeing as how this whole tractor has like 6 wires i think i can figure it out lol.

I even contemplated just going back to 6v....my cub does fine on 6v

 

[will-max dairy]

Yes the new distributor is points. I do plan to go breakerless at some point but now i just need this thing to work lol.

It also came with a new coil.

The reason the points wouldnt open is because the cam lobes on the old distributor were totally flat.

Anyways...

I investigated. It looks like someone at some point had the brown coil wire hooked to the factory resistor. There is a broken connector on one end with a tiny piece of brown wire sticking off it, and it looks way to new to be from 1945.

So im wondering if the coil that was on it when i bought it was 12v, and wired up with just one resistor. It took a dump and i put a new 6v on it, and it got fried.

I ordered a new factory style resistor. Im going to wire everything per the diagram and go from there.

6V coil... 12V coil...

Give yourself a little grace...

And... the one statement in your wiring diagram that is universal is:

"Total resistance of coil plus all ignition resistors should be 3.5 to 4 ohms." And calculate this using the "hot" (higher) value of the dashboard resistor. Sometimes called "ballast" resistor... sometimes called a "thermistor"...

Then... if you aren't an electronics tech or electrical engineer... good luck getting accurate measurements of one to two ohms... (you CAN, it's just that you need good contact, you may need to subtract the resistance of the leads themselves...)

Once you get into the land of 12V conversions, the variables multiply...

 

[Jim.ME]

Right. But i bought a 6v coil. I think possibly the one i replaced (that was on it when i bought it) was 12.

Resistors will get hot, Do Not touch them when operating.

Since you have points not EI you do not need the red wire shown in that diagram.

Both coils need the original type of resistor. A 6-volt coil needs the second resistor (R2) in the diagram. A 12-volt coil does not need the R2 resistor.

 

[DZG300]

Resistors will get hot, Do Not touch them when operating.

Since you have points not EI you do not need the red wire shown in that diagram.

Both coils need the original type of resistor. A 6-volt coil needs the second resistor (R2) in the diagram. A 12-volt coil does not need the R2 resistor.

Good info. Hopefully i can get it straightend out in time for snow removal.

Honestly this old tractor seems like its been neglected and hacked half to death.

 

[will-max dairy]

I replaced the coil only (with old distributor) first. Then it quit again.

Thats when i pulled the old distributor and seen it was FUBAR.

So thats when i ordered the new distributor that came with a new coil.

Then it died again.

But i think, hopefully, i got it figured out this time. Ill know hopefully next week when i can wrench on it again.

Electrical isnt my strong suit but seeing as how this whole tractor has like 6 wires i think i can figure it out lol.

I even contemplated just going back to 6v....my cub does fine on 6v

Our 2N is still 6V, for this reason... simplicity. And we have more modern tractors that we depend on in the winter. If it was already converted to 12V, I would leave it that way, since you do get better winter starting, and batteries are more available. (PS... even a 6V will have decent winter starting, if you keep it on a battery maintainer, a warm 6V battery outperforms a cold one by a long shot...)

But, we used to have a Ford 64x (I say x because someone painted over the serial number so well that I could never tell if it was a 640 or 641)... that we depended on year round, back then. We did a 12V conversion on it and added a resistor in-line with the original 6V coil. The person that bought that tractor is a friend of mine. He recently had some ignition problems... and at least he didn't have to figure out what was done to it... he called me, and I came over and checked it out for a cup of coffee... but... if he had to re-trace what I did... and buy the right coil/resistor... whatever... it could get messy.