656 Gas Hydro Blown Head Gasket and Holy Valve

[Fritz Maurer]

If he did respond, I'm pretty sure the first thing, and maybe the only thing, he would say is, that is why you run LOW ASH oil. That torch hole in the valve is exactly what the IH low ash oil prevented.

I think all that oil that’s already in the combustion chamber is indicating a bigger problem than what kind of oil he uses

 

[J.Wondergem]

Over heating will cause the oil rings to collapse.

 

[rustred]

I went for the total rebuild. Had a guy check the block and short block the bottom end and machined the head back to flat. Now for the trouble…. I assembled it all, went to fire it up, and the head gasket leaked coolant all the way around! So now I’m back where I started. Any tips for this head gasket? I think I’ll go again with copper coat this time and run it before adding coolant to get the retorque opportunity. Any other suggestions are appreciated.

DO NOT run it dry! look at the money u just spent. i like to use water on the first start ups. run it up to temp with the rad covered for at least 45 minutes. then retorque the head and reset the valves. , its the heat that cures the problem they have a sealer built into the gasket. felpro is not known for good gaskets anymore. and antifreeze leaks before water will.

 

[used red MN]

Over heating will cause the oil rings to collapse.

Wondergem, if you have the forum option for quoting turned on you need to look at the post reply numbers. Look at reply 18, he has overhauled the engine and now has other problems.

 

[tstoub77]

Well… that’s one sure way to crack the head…

1/2 the people say run it dry for 30 seconds, the other half warn of things like you do.

 

[Fritz Maurer]

1/2 the people say run it dry for 30 seconds, the other half warn of things like you do.

The half that say run it dry are not going to racing over to your house with their check books when it’s time to buy a new head. I’m just trying to err on the side of caution.

 

[rustred]

1/2 the people say run it dry for 30 seconds, the other half warn of things like you do.

guess u got to decide on which half has the hands on experience, if its even half, and who is looking for points . without coolant its not what u want. you want it heated evenly and for a length of time. 30 sec. without coolant only is heating the inside chambers and that is too long, the piston skirts will be scuffing the walls from growing also. you start that engine and time yourself 30 seconds, but i am not saying to do that, just saying its a long time to have heat building up. you got tight clearances there , its not like running an old worn out engine.

 

[Janicholson]

guess u got to decide on which half has the hands on experience, if its even half, and who is looking for points . without coolant its not what u want. you want it heated evenly and for a length of time. 30 sec. without coolant only is heating the inside chambers and that is too long, the piston skirts will be scuffing the walls from growing also. you start that engine and time yourself 30 seconds, but i am not saying to do that, just saying its a long time to have heat building up. you got tight clearances there , its not like running an old worn out engine.

Correct!!! The best plan is to make sure the sleeve protrusion is to spec and within .001 of each other. Dry running is point heating with none of the valve train involved. give it a break. The key is warm to the touch, not fully heated as though working for 20 minutes on a plow. Jim with massive experience. Jim

 

[caterpillar guy]

Look for a better gasket than the one you have in there. Then don't use any of those tinplate gaskets they just don't have the crush in them to seal. You need an old sandwich gasket or as close as you can get to that. Then with eveything clean enough to eat off from put a light coat of grease on the gasket on both sides set it on and the tighten down according to your toque specs in 3 times around and then a final one. Fill with water first if not freezing warm up then retorque. Checking for evenness in the torque as you finish with a second time over it. With a freshly planed head and block it should seal well. I have never used anything but grease on head,pan and tappet cover gaskets. These were cork pan and tappet gaskets, with the old sandwich head gaskets. Never had a problem with them leaking even on the Dodge Siamese 6 engines.

 

[used red MN]

1/2 the people say run it dry for 30 seconds, the other half warn of things like you do.

@tstoub77 My main question is where are you at that “1/2 the people say to run it dry”? Very curious where this approach is recommended, I personally have never heard of such a thing on a new engine 1st start. And secondly have they given and explanation of what the benefit of this process is? You might be saying “it’s just an old 6 banger gasser in a tractor” these particular ones have some tricks to them to get it right. I suggest you take into consideration what has been written in your thread. Stop back along the way and let us know the process and ask questions about anything that seems odd.

 

[tstoub77]

Look for a better gasket than the one you have in there. Then don't use any of those tinplate gaskets they just don't have the crush in them to seal. You need an old sandwich gasket or as close as you can get to that. Then with eveything clean enough to eat off from put a light coat of grease on the gasket on both sides set it on and the tighten down according to your toque specs in 3 times around and then a final one. Fill with water first if not freezing warm up then retorque. Checking for evenness in the torque as you finish with a second time over it. With a freshly planed head and block it should seal well. I have never used anything but grease on head,pan and tappet cover gaskets. These were cork pan and tappet gaskets, with the old sandwich head gaskets. Never had a problem with them leaking even on the Dodge Siamese 6 engines.

This gasket is copper on top, metal bottom, with a membrane in between. It only fits one direction for oil passage openings. Is that what you mean by a sandwich? Machinist stopped by today and rechecked everything and all appeared well. When installed, I had torqued 30-60-90 all to book sequence. Machinist has been around and has built hundreds, and he checked the first thing I did as a rookie; are the bolts hanging up or bottoming out? No.

The other opinion is a mechanic friend. He too has not seen a reason for this affect. He’s built a few motors in his lifetime and would pop them off before filling up the water and I’ve come across other engine forums supporting the idea. I thought it was crazy but there were a lot of water leaks on this thing that I can’t seem to explain.

Copper spray is what they’ve both suggested as an add to the procedure and the machinist took the head back with him to clean up the finish just for kicks to rule it out.

Also, when the liners were out, block was true and couldn’t fit 0.001 under the edge anyplace. And yes, cork on pan and tappet cover gaskets.

 

[tstoub77]

@tstoub77 My main question is where are you at that “1/2 the people say to run it dry”? Very curious where this approach is recommended, I personally have never heard of such a thing on a new engine 1st start. And secondly have they given and explanation of what the benefit of this process is? You might be saying “it’s just an old 6 banger gasser in a tractor” these particular ones have some tricks to them to get it right. I suggest you take into consideration what has been written in your thread. Stop back along the way and let us know the process and ask questions about anything that seems odd.

Thanks. A mechanic friend suggested it and after combing the web today for gasket leaks like this on new builds, I read often that guys are popping it off dry for the first retorque. It sounds crazy to me too but the machinist came out today for an inspection and he can’t see anything wrong in the deck surfaces or in my procedure.

 

[rustred]

why did u not warm it up with water then do the retorque? i have seen that fix leaks before. also use permatex hightack sealer on that metal gasket, better than copper coat. it is sticky and will seal before that copper paste will. if that head was planned he might not have the finish on it smooth enough , and that is your problem and high tack spray would have also did the trick. i have done many many heads and never yet used copper spray paste, but i did look at it once and said no thank you.

 

[caterpillar guy]

Yup the description is what I meant by a sandwich gasket. Should be fine. Look at your sleeve protrusion. IF they are off by more than about a .001 they will hold the next part beside it up compared to the others and allow it to leak.

 

[J.Wondergem]

Wondergem, if you have the forum option for quoting turned on you need to look at the post reply numbers. Look at reply 18, he has overhauled the engine and now has other problems.

OK. Thanks.

 

[used red MN]

Thanks. A mechanic friend suggested it and after combing the web today for gasket leaks like this on new builds, I read often that guys are popping it off dry for the first retorque. It sounds crazy to me too but the machinist came out today for an inspection and he can’t see anything wrong in the deck surfaces or in my procedure.

Thanks. A mechanic friend suggested it and after combing the web today for gasket leaks like this on new builds, I read often that guys are popping it off dry for the first retorque. It sounds crazy to me too but the machinist came out today for an inspection and he can’t see anything wrong in the deck surfaces or in my procedure.

Thanks. A mechanic friend suggested it and after combing the web today for gasket leaks like this on new builds, I read often that guys are popping it off dry for the first retorque. It sounds crazy to me too but the machinist came out today for an inspection and he can’t see anything wrong in the deck surfaces or in my procedure.

You make no mention of the sleeve protrusion Caterpillar Guy has explained. If your sleeves are to high or to low or uneven it can cause the gasket to leak.
On your dry radiator start I watch a YouTube mechanic in Oregon, he is pretty darn good considering the variety of things he works on. He often start fresh rebuilds without coolant in them. His deal is he is so darn paranoid that he will have a problem so he jumps through tremendous loop holes to start an engine with only a minimum of stuff hooked up. I would think after a while you could just get to a point where you trust your work and quit worrying you did something wrong. Not condoning a dry start in anyway mostly because there is no reason you need to do it. Put coolant in it and start it. I don’t feel the statement that it is going to get to hot in 30 seconds is of great concern, it takes quite a bit of energy to heat up that chunk of metal. Again not condoning a dry start mostly because as said above water/coolant belongs in the cooling system, put it in there.

 

[caterpillar guy]

Big problem with dry running like that is the hot spots right at and near the top of the cylinders during combustion. Those are hard on both the gasket and the sleeves with the heat not being dissipated by the coolant be it water or antifreeze. Water would be a cheap option then with no leaks found and retorque done drain both radiator and block and refill with coolant of your choice. I would probably stay with either the coolant you have in everything else for ease of use or the green stuff. I know when I bought my last road tractor 24 years ago they were having problems with the extended life antifreeze causing issues with gaskets. I would suppose by now that has been solved in those 24 years now. I still use the green in everything we have unless the last combine is something different. It seems to me it was green or yellow when I tested it last fall. not sure without looking though. Some kinds can't be mixed either.

 

[tstoub77]

why did u not warm it up with water then do the retorque? i have seen that fix leaks before. also use permatex hightack sealer on that metal gasket, better than copper coat. it is sticky and will seal before that copper paste will. if that head was planned he might not have the finish on it smooth enough , and that is your problem and high tack spray would have also did the trick. i have done many many heads and never yet used copper spray paste, but i did look at it once and said no thank you.

Leak was so extreme it penetrated the cylinders and prevented startup. Thanks for the tip about the high tack.

 

[tstoub77]

You make no mention of the sleeve protrusion Caterpillar Guy has explained. If your sleeves are to high or to low or uneven it can cause the gasket to leak.
On your dry radiator start I watch a YouTube mechanic in Oregon, he is pretty darn good considering the variety of things he works on. He often start fresh rebuilds without coolant in them. His deal is he is so darn paranoid that he will have a problem so he jumps through tremendous loop holes to start an engine with only a minimum of stuff hooked up. I would think after a while you could just get to a point where you trust your work and quit worrying you did something wrong. Not condoning a dry start in anyway mostly because there is no reason you need to do it. Put coolant in it and start it. I don’t feel the statement that it is going to get to hot in 30 seconds is of great concern, it takes quite a bit of energy to heat up that chunk of metal. Again not condoning a dry start mostly because as said above water/coolant belongs in the cooling system, put it in there.

Liners are all in spec and with one another.

 

[tstoub77]

Here we go again. Round 2.