Ford 4000 engine problem

[FarmerBlair]

So I've posted recently about my 1963 Ford 4000 select-o-speed tractor regarding running rough. I am at a loss as to what may be going on. Now I can't even start it.
When it was running, it would run rough, especially after warming up. I adjusted valves which helped with compression, which is now about 125-90-90-125. I replaced the points and adjusted gaps on that and plugs. This also helped. It ran well enough that I used it for about an hour in the field with a field cultivator. It ran okay, though it still would be a little rough and sound like it was misfiring a bit.
Later, I checked timing with timing light and found it to be a little off, so tried adjusting distributor so it was 4-degrees at idle, and about 24-degrees at 2200rpm. I couldn't set both, as it was about 5 degrees off when setting one versus the other, so I tried to compromise in the middle. After that it would run really bad and die in a minute or two, and hard to restart. I tried moving distributor back to the original setting, with no improvement. Now it won't start at all. Gas is coming out the carburetor air intake (found after removing air filter tube). Plugs were wet so I dried them and reinstalled. Checked points again and they are okay. Tried resetting time by rotating piston #1 to compression position and slightly adjusted distributor points gap open at #1. Still no start. Used spark plug tester and all plugs getting spark. Swapped out 6 volt coil from my running 881 tractor. That did not help, and the 4000 coil worked fine on the 881.
When trying to start, there is a frequent "jolt" or kick against the starter that abruptly stops the starter briefly. It would about shake the tractor when it happens. If I pulled the wire from the coil so there is no spark, the starter would turn with no sign of this kicking. It's almost as if the engine is kicking in the opposite direction against the starter.
I ordered a complete carb rebuild kit since fuel was flooding out, and I had some carb issues anyway. But does this sound like just a carb problem? It was at least start fairly easily before I started messing with the timing.

 

[cushman]

With Cylinders 2+3 lower than 1+4 ,it would make me think the head gasket is leaking between 2+3.
That could cause ignition from the center cylinders to cross to each other.
That could give you those symptoms.

 

[FarmerBlair]

(quoted from post at 17:36:29 04/21/23) With Cylinders 2+3 lower than 1+4 ,it would make me think the head gasket is leaking between 2+3.
That could cause ignition from the center cylinders to cross to each other.
That could give you those symptoms.

Thanks Cushman. I would not have thought of that. Someone else on the forum mentioned there could be a head gasket leak causing the low compression. But it never occurred to me it could be causing the ignition issue you mention.

 

[Maine4140HD]

Did you resolve your problem?

My 1963 ford 4140 industrial 172 4cyl gas did the very same thing and had same symptoms. I chased the same things... hard start, rough running, starting then dying, new contacts, resetting gap, new coil, new distributor (the old one was in bad shape), gas overflowing the carb.

I reset the timing several times (I thought). In the end, it was the timing.

I set it by taking out #1 plug and removing distributor cap. I put a damp wad into the plug hole and using a remote start switch, I jumped the solenoid in small steps until the wad "popped" out of the plug hole. I noted where the rotor position was. I repeated this several times to be sure the rotor stopped at the same place. This was TDC. I then pulled the distributor and set it back with rotor pointing to number 1 plug on the cap. I slightly turned the distributor body to get the contacts just opening up on the lobe and tightened it down.

The tractor started right up on first turn of the key, no more gas overflowing the carb, ran great and always starts right up. I pull out the choke, turn the key, and before I can count to 3 it starts up.

Maybe this will help... good luck

 

[FarmerBlair]

(quoted from post at 13:14:11 04/24/23)
Did you resolve your problem?

My 1963 ford 4140 industrial 172 4cyl gas did the very same thing and had same symptoms. I chased the same things... hard start, rough running, starting then dying, new contacts, resetting gap, new coil, new distributor (the old one was in bad shape), gas overflowing the carb.

I reset the timing several times (I thought). In the end, it was the timing.

I set it by taking out #1 plug and removing distributor cap. I put a damp wad into the plug hole and using a remote start switch, I jumped the solenoid in small steps until the wad "popped" out of the plug hole. I noted where the rotor position was. I repeated this several times to be sure the rotor stopped at the same place. This was TDC. I then pulled the distributor and set it back with rotor pointing to number 1 plug on the cap. I slightly turned the distributor body to get the contacts just opening up on the lobe and tightened it down.

The tractor started right up on first turn of the key, no more gas overflowing the carb, ran great and always starts right up. I pull out the choke, turn the key, and before I can count to 3 it starts up.

Maybe this will help... good luck

Thanks Maine. It is at least hopeful that someone else has had the same problem. But I don't fully understand the part in which you said you "pulled the distributor and set it back with rotor pointing to #1 plug on the cap." So your rotor was not originally pointing to plug #1 when you had it set a TDC? In my case, the rotor does up with plug #1 when the cylinder is at TDC. If I pull the distributor, wouldn't I just be reinstalling it in the same position? I'm not a mechanic, so I am probably missing something here.

 

[Sean in PA]

Lots of people think that you have to line it up to the terminal on the cap marked with the number 1, but it's not really necessary.

The distributor can be installed with the rotor pointing at any terminal on the cap when the #1 piston is at TDC of the compression stroke. You just use whatever terminal that is on the cap to connect the #1 spark plug wire and then follow the correct firing order for the other plug wires. There is nothing magical about the #1 terminal on the cap on those tractors. On some other engines, like the earlier N series with the front mount distributors, they were keyed so that the distributor shaft could only be installed one way and #1 on the cap was always where the #1 plug wire went, but on distributors that can be installed in any orientation you just need to know which terminal the rotor points to when #1 is at TDC and use that terminal for the #1 plug wire. Once you get it close and it will at least run, you use a timing light to adjust the timing to the proper spec.

 

[Maine4140HD]

It depends, the rotor should line up with #1 on the cap like you said. Normally, I used a long screwdriver to turn the crank while holding my thumb over the #1 plug hole until I felt the gush of air indicating TDC.

My problems started after I removed the distributor and later turned the crank without taking note of where is was installed. I timed it according to manual. That wasn't working for me, the tractor would barely start and it was a hard crank, draining the battery from the starter pulling all those amps. I thought I had timed it correctly so when problems developed, I didn't think it could be the timing.

All that matters is getting TDC. When I switched to the "pop" method to get TDC, the rotor stopped near #4 . I could have rewired plug wires on the distributor cap and make #4 the new #1 but I wanted it at #1 on the cap so I lifted out the dist and set pointing at #1 on the cap.

I have my engine out now... it was leaking oil at rear main seal. I bought it last June. I'm glad I did, found things just in time.

I have a 1984 Ford Bronco 351 Windsor and I have a piston stop tool that screws into the plug hole. I look at the timing mark and turn the engine by hand to get it close to TDC then screw the tool in. Then carefully turn crank CW until it stops and mark the harmonic balancer. Then I turn it CCW until the piston stops again and mark the balancer. I mark the half way point between those marks, that is TDC. Can't do that with my 4140 because the timing hole is too small to see those marks at the same time.

My engine is 172 4-cylinder gas.

 

[FarmerBlair]

Maine, in answer to your question: I still have not resolved or even identified the problem. Here is a short video showing my trying to start the tractor. Notice that it seems to "kick" against the starter. A longer video would show it doing this on average 2-3 times per rotation. Doesn't do it with the coil disconnected. I also tried unplugging each spark plug wire (with coil connected), and I still get this "kicking" back against the starter. If I just have a single plug connected for spark and the other 3 disconnected, it still kicks back. Number one cylinder alone kicks the worst, then #4, then 2 and 3. Not so much with cylinders 2 and 3, which coincidentally have the lowest compression.


[video play=false:96395214c3]https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/videos/mvvideo105065.avi[/video:96395214c3]

 

[FarmerBlair]

Trying again with the video
[video play=false:671d846f72]https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/videos/mvvideo105067.mp4[/video:671d846f72]

 

[FarmerBlair]

In this second video, I have the coil disconnected/no spark


[video play=false:fb06838beb]https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/videos/mvvideo105068.mp4[/video:fb06838beb]

 

[Maine4140HD]

That's what mine sounded like also until the timing was corrected. And it poured gas out of the carb air horn.

Did you try the "pop" method using a remote start switch connected to the soleniod? When it pops, it sends the wad flying fast.

I used my 12v test light from ground to the distributor electrical connection and turned the engine (with key on to power the coil) using the starter switch, watched it flash as each lobe was opening and closing the contacts. Then I know the distributor is working. After that, if I have gas and air, then it should start. But if the timing is off, then it's going to load down the starter. I check plugs aren't fowled also. As long as there are no internal engine issues, that should be it.

I can see in the video that your distributor is turned CCW. Mine is always set with the electrical connector at 90 degrees to the block. This gives an equal amount of swing left or right. Yours is all the way CCW. I don't think your timing is right. Can you do the pop test with the dist set in the middle and cap off and rotor on? I'd like to see a video of that. Here is a what the switch looks like... under $20.

 

[FarmerBlair]

(quoted from post at 08:12:58 04/27/23)


Did you try the "pop" method using a remote start switch connected to the soleniod? When it pops, it sends the wad flying fast.



I don't know what a pop test is. You are right that the distributor is turned about as far CCW as it will go. But that is about where it was when I could start it and it ran. Also, it is about at 4-degrees on the flywheel when #1 cylinder is at TDC. That is the confusing thing to mie. Seems like it should be relatively close in timing. I'll try your suggestion and rotate the distributor CW to the position you mention, then check out which terminal the rotor is pointing to on the cap and plug in cylinder #1 wire there

 

[Maine4140HD]

The pop method... remove #1 spark plug. Place a damp wad of shop towel or whatever into the hole but don't push it too far. Take off distributor cap. Connect a remote starter switch to the solenoid. Don't need the key on, keep it off.

Bump the starter in small steps and watch rotor turn. When the engine reaches TDC, the air compression will send the wad flying out and you will hear a definite pop sound. Don't stand near the plug hole though. That is TDC. Repeat a few times to be sure where the rotor stops. This is where the rotor should line up pointing to the #1 on the cap. I mark the body of the distributor where it is on the cap. I always pull the distributor and set it back in to point to #1 if it's not already. That's just my preference.