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Hunting Deer, cartridge type?

G

Gun guru

Well-known Member
What is the best caliber for dropping a deer? There will be many comments on this subject.
Formula #1. Kinetic energy = 1/2 mass x velocity squared.

1. A good friend of mine says that the .30-30 Winchester caliber is not as good as the 7mm cartridge. He has had deer get hit with a well placed lung shot as 75 yards and run, and he doesnt find them, this happened 2 times he says. (the rifle was a Marlin) .30-30, 150 grain bullet. I heard a statistic that the .30-30 cartridge has taken down more deer then all other cartridges combined. KE = 75 x 2390^2.
In my opinion the .30-30 is a great cartridge due to the flat nose bullet so the deer takes the bullet energy instead of the bullet going through the deer. Ammo is plentiful and $15/box.

2. .30-06 Springfield. Lots of power here but the cartridge velocity can make the bullet go through the deer. Another friend of mine had this happen and he tracked the deer for a while before he found it. Another friend of mine get a head shot on a deer with .30-06, dropped it right there. 180 grain bullet. (short range I am sure)
Kinetic energy = 90 x 2700^2. Plentiful ammo, but $ 20 per box.

3. .223" I dont know if this is legal but .223 to hit a deer with, massive internal bleeding, like in a person. I dont know of anyone that has hit a deer with a .223 round.

4. .35 remington, Dont know of anyone hitting a deer with this cartridge but muzzle velocity is 2000 feet/second, with a 200 grain bullet the kinetic energy is KE = 1/2m X velocity^2. Or 400x 10^6

5. A co-worker of mine takes deer with his slug gun, on his property. Rifle shooting is not legal where he lives.

Bullet type, Flat nose, ballistic tip, hollow point play a factor, but I have no real info on what is best.

I saw a video a few years back on Barnes bullets, basically a hyper version of the hollow point in which the bullet mushrooms out and all the kinetic energy is absorbed by the animal. This video shows a full grown elephant being dropped by a Barnes bullet, amazing. The hydro-dynamic shock is so great that all the organs of the animal are crushed that are in the path of the bullet.

What have you taken down deer with? Have you ever dropped an Elk? Or Bison?
Let er rip on calibers for deer, and rifle type.
 
Never knowingly killed a deer with it, but a 3 point 5 rocket launcher (bazooka) would definitely put one down.
 
A lot of it depends on where you are hunting.
If you are out west and your shots are 2,3,400 yards you aren't going to be using a 30-30.
In central MN brush country you rarely get a shot that's over 100 yards. I used a 30-30 Marlin for 35 years and knocked down a lot of deer with it - rarely over 80 yards.
Only when my eyes started changing did I start thinking about a rifle with a scope. I always thought that putting a scope on a 30-30 was kind of like putting a gold ring in a pig's nose.
So I bought a new Tikka bolt in .270.
Why 270? Heck it's more than enough stopping power for deer, would be a good gun to go out west for mulies with if we can ever pull that trip off and three of the four guys I hunt with shoot .270 so if I ever forget to bring shells I can borrow some. I aint a ballistics expert.
 
I'm not a tree stand kind of guy, more a "walking around" kind of hunter. My deer gun is a Marlin 45 mag lever action with a saddle stock and a bored out peep sight. It's a great brush gun, the round will crash through some stuff and still stay pretty much on target, and it knocks down pretty much anything it hits. I've rarely shot at anything over 30 yards away with it though.
My dad gave me a Remington 30-06 semi auto with a scope that (bushmaster? Feildmaster?) that my grand dad used in the stands behind his farm. I've never really had it out of the case, but grandpa got a deer almost every year.
For me, a day hunting is more about being outside so I'm sure my choice is not the most effective weapon of choice.
 
I agree with you putting a scope on a .30-30 brush gun is silly. It was designed to be fired short distance, under 100 yards with open sights. So a long range shot with a.30-30 is not really practical cause you wont see a deer at 200 yards unless you are scouting around with binoculars.
 
I'll chime in with my .02, the 30-30 is a brush country round with most shots under 100 yards. Anything over 100 yards is not fair to you or the deer. Yes it has taken more deer, only because it has been around long then other cartridges.
I shoot a 30-06 here in Wisconsin, good out to about 200 yards for the average shooter. Last year the buck I shot went about 35-40 yards before dropping. Again in the country I hunt most shots will be under 100 yards.
I have taken deer with a 16ga slug, shots under 50 yards and the deer don't run far.
With all that being said smallest cartridge I would use is the .243. A old marksman once told me that the best cartridge to use is the one you shoot the best, .243, 25-06, .270, 35 Remington etc. What ever you can put on target best/accurate is the one you should be using.
 
A well-placed shot from any cartridge will take an eastern whitetail. 22 Long Rifle to 416 Rigby. But a 300 Ultra Mag won't do a thing if you don't hit the deer in a vital area.

Most factory ammo is loaded with crappy bullets. That's one reason that moderate-powered rounds like .30-30 and .35 Remington work well: Their moderate velocities don't require the bullet to perform well. But with powerful cartridges like .30-06 on up, factory bullets tend to come apart at close range. That's where premium bullets like Barnes and Nosler show their stuff. Despite the advertising hype, these bullets do well because they expand without blowing apart, not because of "hydro-dynamic shock".

The .30-30 bullet has a flat nose so that rounds don't go off in the magazine, not for any ballistic reason. If a flat-nosed bullet was better, they wouldn't make pointy ones.

There is another index for measuring cartridge lethality besides kinetic energy, and that is the
Taylor Knockdown Index (TKO). It is basically momentum (mass x velocity) times bullet diameter. TKO favors heavy, large caliber bullets. My personal opinion is that TKO is more a measure of bullet performance than cartridge performance: small, light, fast bullets don't perform well, while large, heavy, slow bullets perform consistently.
 
.308, performs quite satisfactory, I double up the use of my M1A for hunting and target with Federal 150 grain, soft tip bullets, they were $14/box of 20 at the "evil" walmarts. I've also handloaded 130 grain hollow points and 3031 IMR, thirty something grains, if I recall correctly now. I did have to form fit the case and use a RCBS semi .308 die, I think the factory does not even recommend handloading for that rifle, headspace concerns/safety etc. I mocked up a case until it fit properly, did the rest the same way. Both of these rounds were nice tight groups, shot fine, cases looked normal, and the hollow points resulted in several well placed heart shots, quick kills. The federal 150 gr., you can't beat the price, and the tight groups you get with them out of this rifle, hit the vitals and it performs well for a quick kill every time, I filled all my tags last year. I also like the trajectory, zero is at what, slightly under 300 yds. ?, my shooting lane beyond the field I watch is about that now, can extend it further too, took one at 250 yds with a federal 150 gr. I think the .308 is an efficient caliber for whitetail, you don't need heavy loads, not supposed to use em in my rifle anyway. I would also agree, that for whitetail, there are many fine calibers that work just as well.
 
.22lr. Honestly, shot placement is far more important than anything. We're not alowed to use high powered rifles, so i use 100 gr 777 and a 250gr hornady xtp. works every time.
 
Yes a flat nosed bullet is for tube style magazines so that you dont set off the other cartridges in the magazine tube. But....wouldnt a sharp point bullet have a better chance of going through a deer rather than a flat nose? Just asking here. Think of the geometry of a 60 degree included angle tip of a bullet, say .30 caliber and a flat nose (almost a 1/2 circle) of a .30 caliber.
 
IT'S NOT WHAT YOU USE,,, BUT HOW YOU USE IT,
I HAVE KILLED MANY DEER WITH A 22 LONG RIFLE, YOU JUST HAVE TO BE GOOD AT WHAT YOUR DOING..
 
Yes, I hit a deer at 50MPH several years ago. $2600 in damage if I remember right. Deer was dead, car was 1/2 dead. Saturn SL1 verses Doe....Saturn won.
 
As per Missouri state law any fire arm being center fire is legal. Yes that means a 32 hand gun is legal. Will it drop a deer well yes if and only if you hit it just right. My self I do nt like to try to drop a deer with any thing less then a 100 grain bullet and have done so with a 30 carbine but that is short range shots under 100 yards. The gun I use most of the time is a simple but handy good little deer rifle an SKS yep one that some people say is not any good for any thing but war. I also carry a 44Mag hand gun as a back up and it is more then enough to drop one in its tracks
 
What will not see a deer at 200 yards???????? I sat and watch 4 deer last evening with just my eyes at around 300-400 yards. Pulled out the binocs and saw that one was a small buck with 3 does. Years ago I took a deer off my porch at around 450 yards with a Russian Mosin Nagant missed what I aimed at but still drop it in its tracks. Was going for a heart lung shoot and hit it in the head
 
gun guru,Here in Texas most of our shot are 100yrd + not to say a 3030 will work just not the gun for the application.
My Dad who was an avid shooter preferred his cannon a 7mm Mag which will do the job anywhere on the North American Continent! Most folks will not shoot cannons 7mm Mag and larger
Here I like, the 257 Roberts, 270, 264mm Mag,
Though there are many who prefer 222/223, 243, 22-250 the small calibers
Nobody shoots Deere in Texas with a Shot Gun w/ slugs. Most people will have a larger caliber or Deer, and a smaller rifle for Turkey, ie 222/223.
Hope this helps
Later,
John A.
 
Billy, Springfield Armory does not recommend handloads for the reason that most other manufacturers don't: they don't want to incur liability for a component they have no control over. Never mind that you can't get the best performance out of an M14/M1A with factory ammo; they know that but prefer to turn a blind eye to what their customers are actually doing.

There are a lot of things to be concerned about with loading the M1A. If you haven't read Zediker's book, you need to read his M14 chapter. It's available for free download at the link below.

Things to worry about:

Powder burn rate: Use a powder no slower than IMR-4064. (I use IMR-4895.)

Primer sensitivity. Some brands, notably Federal and Remington, are more sensitive than others. This increases the possibility of a slamfire from the free-floating firing pin.

Sizing. Best to full-length size each time, even though it means poor case life. This reduces the possibility of an out-of-battery fire from a partially closed bolt. Using the RCBS X-die will help your case life and reduce the need to trim.

Incipient case head separation. Always check every case for cracks inside the case head, using a paper clip with a ninety degree bend at the end. I've had a couple of case head separations when I wasn't careful.
Zediker on loading for the M14
 
I have a customer that was trainer for mortors in Marine corp. Stationed in Hawaii. He said they would routinely target wild hogs . cooked alot of them up .
 
In Wyoming I preferred the 25-06. In Iowa (shotgun only) I like the 20 ga. with rifled slug barrel. Shoots like a rifle.
 
I'd say that having a rifle you can shoot accurately is more important than caliber. Guys who carry a 30-06 and close their eyes when they pull the trigger won't do as well as someone with a .243 who hit an empty can from 250yds.

That said I think high velocity helps a lot. I have a .35 Remington and a .25-06. With the .35 you always have to think about hold over or hold under; with the .25-06 you put the crosshairs on it and that's where the bullet will land.
 
I use a M-1 carbine with a 5 shot clip. If that don't work have a 30-06 weatherbey or 444 marlin. I think the marlin has about 1895 lbs Per sq inch of knockdown power at 100 yards using a 240 grain slug. I used a 30-30 for years in WV most shots are under 100 yards.
 
I have shot many with my 22-250. Good impact but no worry about a round going miles if missed. Anything that hits a 22-250 round will shatter the bullet.

Have an Uncle that hunted deer all of the time years ago with a 38 pistol. He was a real good stalker too. He could walk right up to you and scare the crap out of you. He also still hunts rabbits with a 22 single shot bolt action rifle. Just about aways come home with a few. I hope to be that good at 88 years young.

My wife makes him a real good stew with them. He loves it. In the fall and winter he brings her rabbits for that stew 3-4 time each month. She makes him a big three gallon pot full each time. He makes her homemade bread in return. Both good eating.
 
Guru, how does your friend know that he "has had deer get hit with a well placed lung shot...and run..away" if he dosen't recover them ? Seriously how does he know he didn't break a leg ? Sounds like nonsence to me. A deer hit at 75 yards in the lungs with a 30-30 (or any rational deer cartridge and reasonable bullet selection ) is not long for the world. Sounds like he can't shoot straight! A magnum is not going to help.
 
That friend of mine told me that he tracked that deer for a few hours and then gave up. This was in NW Michigan and in heavy woods/brush. I agree with you that he may have broke a leg only, cause with 2 x 7 scope at 75 yards...He isnt going to know at that instant if he hit the lungs or shoulder of the deer. This friend of mine only bow hunts now, he says he hasnt hunted deer with a rifle in at least 6 or 7 years. This friend of mine says he can hit a paper plate at 100 yards with a rifle, which is very easy with a scoped rifle. Open sights would be tougher in a tree stand. If it were me I would want to put a well placed head shot on a deer to drop it right there.
 
I guess it depends on the conditions you are hunting in.If you are in the woods a 30.30 or a slug gun would do just fine,if you are hunting at longer ranges in more open terrain then something more powerfull would be called for.In my opinion the .22 cal rifles are too lightweight unless you can hit the exact spot EVERY time I would say.243 or better would work If a guy could only have one gun a 12 gauge would be hard to beat you can hunt anything with it,birds,small game or deer
 
Indiana, slug guns, so I use Remington 11-87 12 ga., cantilever fully rifled barrel, 3-9X40 scope, with Hornaday slugs. Per their directions, it is zero at 150 yards and about 4" low at 200. I have used this for about 10 years and never had one go more than 20-30 yards. Last 3 years, my shots have been close to 185 yards and all dropped when they ran into the fence at less than 5 yards.

After deer season, change barrels and hunt birds, rabbits, cans, whatever with the same gun. Try that with a 30-30 or 30.06.
 
I haven't hunted deer for many years now but have a 03A3 Springfield sporterized which is of course 30-06. I used a 150 gr. nozler and they really open up and stay together when you hit meat or bone. Sighted in for on at 200 yds, about 3 in high at 100 yards.Weaver K 2.5 scope.
 
You will get as many opinions as there are rifles and calibers. Where we hunt in N MN we have shots up to 300 yds. Wife shoots a 243 and myself a 308, both with Barnes bullets, lead free and good expansion. Bullets always go through, and do a lot of internal damage, with a significant exit wound.
There are new loads for the 30-30 and other tubular magazines called Hornady lever-revolution that make a 30-30 effective out to 200 yds.
I have also shot deer with my Ruger 357 mag, but at 27 yards! Regardless of caliber, they all die within 100 yards.
 
That's funny! I always turn off my lites a couple of seconds before I hit them. Have never hit one yet. They are blinded by the lites and when you turn them off they see the car and jump out of the way. Same way with jack rabbits. My neighbor says "that's too dangerous" but then he hit a deer and it cost him a lot to fix his truck.
 
Well I will remember that next time. When I hit the deer I was barreling down a Michigan state road at 50mph and the deer was instantly in front of me because it was running full tilt perpindicular to the road. And I did not have my high-beam lights on, if I did I may have seen it sooner.
 
"1. A good friend of mine says that the .30-30 Winchester caliber is not as good as the 7mm cartridge. He has had deer get hit with a well placed lung shot as 75 yards and run, and he doesnt find them,..."
If he didn"t find them, how does he know he hit them in the lung?
 
I've got a 30-06 for now, but I'll be looking for a .243 or .308 for next year. They don't kick as bad, with a flatter trajectory.

I might try some Hornady Superformance. It's got a faster-burning powder, peak chamber pressure isn't much higher than a standard load, but since it burns out faster, the pressure is dropping before the bullet exits the muzzle.

The 30-30 is a good brush gun because most are carbine-length, they are easier to handle and get through the brush with. Any bullet is going to be deflected if it hits something.
 
I use a 30-06 these days.. When I was younger I used a 223 several Deer seasons and never had a problem. Almost always dropped em dead with one shot..Just one time had to take a second shot.. Believe me the 223 is plenty of rifle on deer - But I do realise it is on the small side..
 
Sometimes there is no way to avoid hitting one. In a small car they can flip over the hood and land in your face..
 
I inherited my Dad's 30-30 Marlin and that rifle is really accurate. They are on to something with what they call the microgroove barrel. Also have a SKS and am lucky if I can shoot a 4 or 5 inch group at a 100 yards.
Lots of antelope around here but I don't have a freezer so I haven't shot any yet. I don't think the SKS would be a good for anything past 75 yards, but the 30-30 would be deadly at 100 yards. The accuracy of the SKS could be partly beause I buy cheap amo. With a semi automatic it's easy to go thru some amo!
 
Ive hunted since the early fifties with a different gun/caliber every year. Last year was the only year in that time that ive used the same gun twice in a row. Except for the very largest dangerouse game clibers( larger than 458) ive used pretty much them all,from 22mag on up ,and some that were long long obsolete. The single one thing that is consistent with them all on the ability to take down game is bullet construction. Many many people think that if a deer doesnt drop on the spot its a bad gun/bullet/rifle combo,this is simply not true. We get used to watching those guys on tv shoot deer that drop in their tracks,the simple reason they do is because they either take out both front shoulders,or hit the deer in the spine,both of which is a huge meat wasting shot. If your shooting a deer strictly for the antlers thats your money making shot,if your hunting one for the freezer,avoid it like the plauge. You mention the 30-30, a good deer round no doubt. The most common bullet weights for it is 150,180,and the somewhat newer 160 leverlution bullet. What ammo to use in it depends largely where you hunt. The 150 is the quintesential deer bullet. It expands well and does a good job at typical ranges you would use this gun. The 180 is a much heavier constructed bullet,primarily for use on say bears,elk etc. Where you need a bullet to stay together longer. The same is true of the 308(300 savage) ,the 30-06,the 300 mags.what changes primarily is not the bullet, what changes is the ranges at which this same bullet is effctive. If your hunting at ranges from a few feet to say 100 yards,believe it or not,you will get better kills with a 30-30 than a 300 win mag! Quite simply because bullet will either pass through with the win mag or totally blow up on bone due to extremly high velocity. Match your choice of rifle/caliber to the range you expect,NOT,the most power. To illistrate this,take a carefull look at the very largest dangerous game calibers. You will find that without fail they have one thing in common,all are medium range velocity to stop bullets from exploding at close range,all have a very limited selection of bullet weights,all have one bullet weight of the solid type for the greatest penetration at the closest ranges,and all have the exact bullet weight in a soft nose expanding type. If you were to choose only one rifle to hunt with the rest of your life,do this,think about the range youll be hunting. As you go up in case capacity add @ 100 yards on that range,if your talking 30 cal, that would be quite basically 30-30,308,30-06,300mag.100,200,300,400 yards respectivly.i know folks will say they made much longer shots with x rifle in x caliber,i have also, but if you will hold to this plan you wont be far off. AND remember when you add actuall velocity on the far end,your invariably without a doubt,no way around it losing it on the near end both in bullet performance,and meat destruction. Pick a gun thats not too far for the longest shot you plan to take,only,and you'll be well eqquiped wheather your choice of calibers is 22 or 460. sorry for going on so long...
 
Thanks for the info.
You have been hunting longer then anyone I know thats for sure. A few buddys of mine have been hunting since the late 70s.
 

The optics, trigger, and shooter skills are a lot more important than the caliber. I've always used a 0.270 and have dropped many deer within a few hops at about a 150 yds.
 
to give you an idea of what is called erratic bullet performance let me relate my experience on one years hunt.First the rifle,it was a full stocked 6.5x55 caliber,swedish mauser,20 inch barrel ,all the accurizing mods done ,with peep rear and wide blade front sights.It would every time off the bench put the first three shots under a dime at a hundred yards ,before barrel began to heat,and i could shoot off the bench 10 shot strings under a inch.My bullet of choice was a 156 gr norma loaded to near max.Overall a excellent stalking rifle.
deer one ,,i was sitting in a tree stand when a buck maybe 120 lbs crossed the road about 125 yards away.One shot behind the shoulder ,it took maybe three steps and dropped.Examination showed a very small entrance hole,but a exit you could stick your fist in,perfect bullet expansion,just as expected.
deer two,my brother and i had drawn out on a hunt where you could shoot a buck and a doe on a wildlife refuge.It was extremly thick cover,very hot,dry and deer were not moving at all until after dark.We decided to still hunt and kick them out of their beds during the day and to take stands over water holes early morning and late evening.This was a one day hunt so we decided to be proactive.Since we were totally unfamiliar with the area,we flipped a coin to see who would push the ridges ,and who would take the sandy creek bottoms.I drew the creek bottoms.We had went maybe 500 yards when i heard a noise behind me turned around and there was a 8 point with his nose to the ground following the scent i had sprayed on my boots when i walked into my stand that morning.He was at most 15 feet away.When i turned he went up the bank angling about 45 degrees away in full run.my first shot hit him exactly right at about 5 yards behind the front shoulder and he showed absolutly no sign of being hit.Second shot hit him right up the poot chute took out about 3 ft of backbone and bullet stopped just under hide of his chest,perfect and what you would expect,at maybe 25 yards.I totaly thought i had missed the first shot,and only found entrance and exit holes when i skinned him.No sign of expansion whatsoever, a perfect pass through with two holes about half the size of a pencil.
third deer,same hunt.we had dragged the deer to the road and i was heading to get truck while brother continued to still hunt.I had gone maybe half way back to truck when two does came running past me full tilt at at most twenty five feet.I swung on the rear one and bullet hit her exactly in the front shoulder joint.Believe it or not if you had taken a knife and sliced off her whole front shoulder surgically you could have not removed it any cleaner.Bullet hit the joint, exploded and removed the whole shoulder bone,meat, hide, and all. That deer who was at most 100 lbs,ran another 75 yards before laying down, and when i found her 30 minutes or so later she needed a finisher!..was it a bad cartridge that caused all this? no absolutly not,it was my choice to use that heavy constructed bullet.there was absolutly nothing wrong with the cartridge or rifle,and it remains one of my all time favorites.but if i were to use it today on the same hunt ,i would use a lighter, less heavily constructed bullet,and slow it down to help stop explosion and increase expansion.i was lucky to get either of those deer,and did so on the first because i had another shot,and on the second because she laid down.
 
and also,just fyi.for those folks who swear factory ammo is loaded with crappy substardard bullets.not long ago a test was made using all possble brands of premium bullets,hornady,berger,nosler,norma,all the major premium bullets were tested.one bullet stood out above all others tested,in weight retention ,penetration and all the rest.that bullet? the old remington corelokt of all things.surpassed them all regardless of claims, often by a wide margin.this test was done in a effort to find the best of the best bullet for hunting african dangerous game.everyone is pushing their premium bullet these days.theres all kinds of gimmics,but when you lay them all out the old tried and true is very often the best.i used federal power points in 30-06 the last two years because they just happen to shoot better in this rifle and have been pleased.shot 4 deer,from @20-200 yards, all one shot kills.as i recall the most one traveled was maybe thirty yards.one bullet ive never had good luck with at all on deer was the winchester silvertip,i never did see any sign that they expanded at all.maybe on elk or something heavier they would do ok.but on whitetail they seem to me to work as solids.
 
I believe that factory ammo is crappy from the standpoint that the accuracy is not as good as handloaded stuff. 3 years ago I went to my local gun range and a guy was there that was a great shooter, Savage rifle bolt action in .223 caliber, with a 3 x 14 x 50 scope. This guy had his own handloads and he could put a bullet in a bullet hole at 100 yards. (he was off .030 at that distance) I actually measured it with a 6" machinist scale.
I fired a round with his rifle and I was 1" off at the 100 yards. I can hold groups the size of a baseball all day with factory .223 ammo with my AR.
 
run a guided hunting service with my father in law in SW OK, the best round from examples we have seen is the 25-06 with a nosler tip. .257 weatherby mag is also a good round blistering speed and plenty of knock down power. have never had a deer travel over 30 yards after shot. we have outlawed .243 due to losing a few deer after being shot--3 two years ago. .270 is also a really good deer round. the bigger rounds tend to tenderize the meat a little too much. as mentioned before it is how you handle the gun and place the bullet. 25-06 and 270 shoot flat - no math required. would never hunt deer with a .223 not large enough.
 
What I use depends on where I hunt. When I hunt the wooded areas, I use my lever action Marlin 30-30. If I hunt the hay fields I use the Remington 30-06 semi-automatic. The 30-30 is good to about 100 yards before the bullet really starts dropping. But within 100 yards and I can nearly drop them in their tracks. Some I actually have. The 30-06 doesn't start to drop till around 200-250 yards. I haven't had them run very far from it either.

My brother in law uses a 22-250 bolt action. He drops deer in their tracks at 400 yards (running). I didn't believe it either till I was with him and saw him do it.

The best all around caliber for deer, muleys, and elk are either the 270 or 30-06. They can be used in darn near any terrain and distance.
 
I've seen ballistic tips rip a hole in a deer. I shoot 130 grain .270 ammo. I have 3 .270's I've dropped a few and had a few run about 30 yards. Also I've used a 30/30 with great success. Those are what we call brush guns. Made to go through small brush and still hit the deer. They don't open up as fast as the higher powered rifles. If you drop the grains in the bullets. Or they now make a ballistic tip 30/30. This has the soft point so it doesn't go off int the clip and has a pretty good impact on the deer.
 
I shoot a Remington 700 in .270 with a 130 grain Nosler ballistic tips on our small TX deer. I switch to 130 gr Nosler Partitons on bigger northern deer. My gun is set up with a 3.5X10 Leupold scope, Timney trigger set at a very crisp 3 lbs, free floated, aluminum pillar bedded action/barrel. I had it custom fit. I practice regularly through out the year. I usually shoot 1 shot 2-3 times per month and put it up. I have yet to have the time to shoot a group on a game animal. When I do shoot a 3 shot group that gun is capable of ragging a hole about the size of a nickel if I can. I used to hand load but have found that Federal Premium factory rounds shoot just as well. I do buy 100 at a time and all of the same lot. I use this gun out to about 250 yards. I rarely will take a shot past that anymore.

Back in the day I used a .300 winchester mag with 165gr ballistic tips and would shoot out to 500 yards. These shots where off of concrete shooting benches and known marked ranges. I also had a 20 power spotting scope to makes sure that those animals were ones I wanted to shoot.

Tales of 400 yard running shots are very suspect in my opinion.

Many a deer has been killed here in TX with 22 caliber bullets. An old rancher I knew years ago used a .22 rimfire and harvested many a deer for the pot. Shot them between the eyes at close range. Usually off of his horse.

.223, 22-250, 220 swift are are absolutely deadly. Again many a deer has been killed by kids & women using these calibers because they are low recoil and easy for them to shoot.

I have killed several deer with my .223 Colt AR They hit the ground on the spot. I never really felt comfortable with that so don't do it much. I did use a specific deer hunting load. Using the FMJ goes against all my training.
 
A dental tool will reach inside the case and work better than a paper clip.A Dentist sells them at a local gun show.He has a new Gatling gun.
 

asked a local hunter what is used in this area of Germany (deer are not real big) for deer and wild hogs. He said it is about equal on 30.06 and .308. he carries a .308/12 gauge over and under. Usually within 100 yards but can have to reach out there from time to time if the one they need to get doesn't come close enough.
 
Tales of 400 yard running shots are very suspect in my opinion.
Click to expand...

The reason I know it was running was because I missed it standing still with my 30-06. I held about 1' above its backline, but still missed. His scope on the 22-250 is zeroed in @ 400 yds. He rarely shoots at a deer less than 200 yds. He claims it isn't good sportsmanship to shoot any closer with a high powered rifle.

Next time I go hunting with him, I will video it. You might call it luck or an unbelievable tale, but he has done it more than once. He shoots and hunts 24/7 though. He has also killed does with a Matthews bow at 75 yds.
 
I hunt with several weapons of choice: 1) Ruger Blackhawk, 6-1/2" barrel, in .41 Magnum...with a buddy's handloads in 210 grain jacketed hollow points; 2) Knight .50 caliber model LK-93 in-line muzzle loader with 209 primer conversion kit and Powerbelt 245 grain hollow point bullets; and 3) Winchester model 1400 12-gauge shotgun with screw-in rifled choke tube and saboted slugs.

A proper hit with any of the 3 will result in a clean quick kill; a bad shot with any of the three will result in having to track a wounded deer.
 
i have shot many many groups out of dozens of different rifles that had all holes touching with factory ammo.when you consider that factory ammo has to work every time, in every type firearm , under all conditions ,at most any range , you would be very hard pressed to match it in quality and accuracy day in and day out.can you make better ammo for one particular firarm? generally ,but it would surprise you if you knew how many times you couldnt!one problem is that very few of us have access to every powder that suitable for a particular cartridge.so our experimenting is limited to start with, same with primers,bullets, even a large extent cases,and you have a wide array of variables that can set you back.i known guys who owned one case,reloaded that particular case at the bench by hand for each shot,using primers that were weighed to be within a very small weight range ,powder charges that were weighed ot to the hundreth of a grain,bullets that were weighed so closly that he may find five out of a hundred in a box that matched.i used to shoot every day without fail,if we had something to do after work it had better be after range time if you wanted me there,i truly believe that if you picked any brand of ammo today off the shelf,hunted with it the rest of your life,using a gun of the proper caliber for the game hunted,you wouldnt have two animals in your lifetime that you could honestly say you lost them strictly because of the factory ammo failed to preform.thats saying a lot when you think of it.
 
i can put a bullet inside one bullet hole every time ,with every cartridge you can find shells for every day any time you want to bet on it if you let me use one target.i can shoot one bullet ,you can blindfold me and i can STILL DO IT!! i also can put every pellet of every shot gun shell in the exact same hole on a paper for 25 shots!how?ill shoot one hole and shoot the rest in the air!! dont believe the old bullet in the same hole bs.its very easy to make a rifle look good when your doing the firing..
 
johndeerefan,

I have no doubt that it's possible and it's even
likely you saw it. Now tell the rest of the story about how many
he's missed,crippled up,not recovered, and died a slow miserable
death.

Don't get your nnalert in a wad I just have a different set of ethics!
 
Actually I saw him do it cause there was a sticker the size of a quarter on the paper at 100 yards and he hit the center of the sticker and then shot again (while I was watching in the spotters scope) and another hole appeared just off center of the other one. This guy was good. I shot that rifle and I was 1" away from the sticker.
Basically if this guy was in Afganistan with this rifle laying down he could decide which nostril of a terrorist to put the bullet up. Oh, I forgot we arent supposed to shoot terrorists.
 
not saying he wasnt,BUT in todays rifle competetion world those two shots wouldnt have got him past the first round!thats not bad shooting ,but you certainly could do as well,and theres a million hunters out there also who could.lets see,two bullet holes,possibly touching,with a 22 caliber bullet was it? 1/2 inch group min.theres quite literally millions of rifles out there that will do as well,and the shooters to go with them.i'm not picking on you at all and i believe your friend can shoot that well,i think you can also!i was teasing you in the post above,read my post about the 6.5 swede i hunted with,do you know how small a dime is?it with very little work would put three shots under a dime,with a 264 caliber bullet with nothing more than the barrel cut and recrowned and the locking lugs lapped.not once,but every single time,out of a cold barrel.and iron sights.it can be done i have no doubt.and i assure you i'm no great ,wonderful shot.heres a little history lesson for you.for years a 1" group at 100 yards was considered a really good shooting rifle,if you had one that shot better CONSISTENTLY you had a real gem.even today rifle makers are claiming guaranteed 1" groups.did you ever wonder why 1" became the gold standard ?i mean,today you could take 100 brand new rifles of all makes out of the box,if you found one out of that hundred that would consistantly shoot one inch groups youve done something,dont believe it?really,pick up any gun magazine and read the test reports.we blame the shooter,we blame the ammo,we tinker we tweek and we cuss,then we decide weve got a lemon and feel proud of ourselves for getting a new rifle.but why in gods name do we strive so hard for that magic sub 1" group?well heres the answer,back in 1892 when he sold his first contract of rifles to the turkish gov( and yes it was the turkish gov that made mauser famous NOT germany, mauser had sold his company LONG before germany was involved) mauser guaranteed them that EVERY RIFLE built in his factory would shoot 1 1/4 " groups,standard issue battle rifles, no mods whatsoever ,pull it out of the crate clamp it in a vice and blaze away with ANY AMMO!!!!!not only did he claim this, he proved it!!! his contract with the turks stated that every new design made after that would be incorperated ,and every new model of rifle would be guaranteed to that standard or better . every turnbolt rifle since that time has tried to improve on that.the magical one inch group,just simply trying to do better than a run of the mill every day battle rifle ,became the solid gold standard to try to reach.believe it or not ive shot custom built rifles with everything in the world done to them costing tens of thousands of dollars that wouldnt consistantly shoot one inch groups.ive also seen some of those $100 single shots you buy at wall mart shoot groups way less than that.IF,you were shooting every deer that you shot in your lifetime at exactly 1000 yards,you MAY see a advantage to having a rifle that would shoot less than 1" groups.simply because what we consider the KILL ZONE of a normal deer is right at 10 ".any thing less than 1000 yards and the mechanical advantage of a sub 1" rifle becomes null and void.you could not in any way blame your rifle if you missed a deer WITH ANY CALIBER RIFLE,if that deer was within 1000 yards,and your rifle shot 1" groups at 100 yards. the miss was entirely on you because you simply didnt calculate windage and elevation correctly.forget trying to find the "perfect deer rifle" theres no such thing,,pick one you like,suitable NOT for the max ranges you MIGHT shoot but for the ranges you DO shoot,learn to shoot it,practice all you can,and "regardless of caliber" you will be better armed than 99% of the hunters in the field.
 
its amazing also to me as to how many folks call a cartidge like the 30-30 a hundred yard gun max.wasnt too awful long ago that it was considered the single most powerful cartridge in the US and folks shot them to take every type of game.at sometimes pretty amazing ranges.guru to get back to your original question,!st comparing the 30-30 to the 7mm.have you ever heard of a fellow named bell,that was one of the bigest elephant hunters ever? his cartridge of choice was what he called the .276 nothing more than the simple 7x57 mauser.he stated time and time again as to what a wonderful cartridge it was,a little overpowered in his estimation,but deadly on all game.BUT,and this is something you wont hear him say.he practied not just every day ,but constantly all day long,dry firing and shooting flying seagulls out of the air.he was hunting animals that had never seen men,in realitivly open country where he could take his time and place his shots perfectly.if one ran off he simply made camp and tracked it later.and would NOT most likely follow a wounded one into the bush.
the 30-30 at one time was the single most powerful factory cartridge in the US.people used it to hunt every north american species of game,and every animal around he world.and it was one of the highly regarded cartridge ever.same deal,folks who were highly experienced with it were not outguned anywhere,but their were literally hundreds eaten by bears ,killed by moose,stomped by elephants,or mashed into a red pulp by cape buffalo.the exact same thing that happened when folks who read of bells exploits and decided they were going to use the .276 like he did.the problem with either cartridge is and never was the cartridge,the problem then just like today is the shooter.no reason why either one of these cartridges wont kill a deer at a thousand yards,if you calculated the trajectory correctly.BUT humans being what they are,and espaecially americans (no offense intended i assure you) we just couldnt admit to being inferior in any thing especially as we were touted as being a nation of marksmen.so we began to blame the cartridge instead of the shooters,and the great caliber races was off and it shows no sign of slowing even today.
#2 yes its caused by s imply thing called terminal ballistics.what happens when a bullet terminates in the game animal.if you dont have one ,get you a GOOD reloading manual put out by whatever bullet manufacturer you choose.READ IT FRONT TO BACK!!!!!if it doesnt have a section showing every bullet that manufacturer makes in all calibers ,with a break down of every bullets recomended velocities its trash,and throw it away .THAT ONE SINGLE THING is the MOST important thing in the whole book!!!! without that info ,quite literally you are more effectivly equipped with a spear!why ?simply because that one single thing is going to show you with very little error what that bullet will do,and what it wont do.your freinds experience bears it out perfectly.IF he were to reload a bullet cunstructed for 30-30 velocities,loaded it in his 06(yes you can ) he would get better close range kills simply because he had a bullet made to expand at 0-100 yards instead of 2-300.it doesnt matter what rifle you use ,bullet preformance is what kills game nothing else.AND though 995 of the folks dont do it,thats the biggest advantage to reloading your own ammo.you can tailor loads to your rifle that will alow you to sit in a stand watching a canyon or wheat feild,take the same rifle,with a different bullet and load,go directly into thickest brush around and be perfectly armed without changing scope settings or any thing.again not changing your scope you could the next day be hunting grizzly with th heaviest bullets where your life could depend on stopping a charge,and that same evening shoot a couple of sage hens for supper.THAT AND THAT ALONE is one of the primary reasons to reload,not simply to make the fastest most explosive load possible.
#3 lots of deer killed with the 223 these days ,i wouldnt but thats my choice.i have a nephew who has shot a lot of deer that any hunter would be proud of with a 22-250.not even a clue as to how many have run off with no blood trail to die later though.ive personally hunted down two that were shot with a 223,one i found the next day and finished,one took a week,and by the time i found him he was so full of infection and swollen up you couldnt stand to get down wind of him,but he was still living.that in my opinion is unneccesary
#4 35 remington is a cartridge i consider on par with the 30-30 but with a heavier bullet for heavier game.if i were hunting moose ,bear or,maybe even elk i would rather use this.but its killed a lot of deer also
#5 if i were to own one gun for every single thing it would be a 12ga shotgun,check the ballistics on a 12 ga factory slug,basically what you are shooting is a 458mag with more recoil!not much problem with a blood trail on the ones ive shot.
as to bullet type ive pretty much explained that i think .heres news for you, every single bullet in the world kills by hydrostatic shock.barnes has a good advertising dept.they make things look impressive dont they?
like i say ive used most every caliber and rifle type.im in the process now of building and having built one in 243.,I dont particularly like the 243 for deer,but i want a coyote gun and you cant do much better in the wind than that.if i were to build one stricktly for deer, no doubt at all ,308 winchester.
 
Not getting upset here. Just know what I saw (that one time). That is way too far of a shot for me personally. I am not that steady.

To my knowledge, the few that were not recovered were from a bow.
 
Sitting at a bench with a nice rifle is not a "real"world situation in the hunting world.
You are in a tree stand with a rifle that you have to shoulder, aim, shoot. (a decent hunter/shooter can hold groups the size of a cantaloupe at 75 yards) I can hold groups like that with my Winchester .30-30 while standing at 50 yards. 9 out of 10 shots will be in that 6" diameter circle. Seated I will hold 4" or better groups with that rifle. And that is open sights. No scopes on a lever gun.
 
(quoted from post at 17:27:11 09/21/11) Sitting at a bench with a nice rifle is not a "real"world situation in the hunting world.
You are in a tree stand with a rifle that you have to shoulder, aim, shoot. (a decent hunter/shooter can hold groups the size of a cantaloupe at 75 yards) I can hold groups like that with my Winchester .30-30 while standing at 50 yards. 9 out of 10 shots will be in that 6" diameter circle. Seated I will hold 4" or better groups with that rifle. And that is open sights. No scopes on a lever gun.
Click to expand...

That's called "waiting" and what prolly 90% of the folks that call themselves hunters do.......... Where is the sport of setting in a stand watching a trail that you know will have a deer pass. Or shooting 200+ yards at a target that has no idea that you are there......A real hunter or sportsman wouldn't have to shoot more than maybe 100 yds at a white tail. I always liked the 12 gauge, aim at the shoulder, pull the trigger, see the belly, walk over and slit the throat. Never shot farther than maybe 60 yards.
 
You have so much wrong I am not sure where to start. The 30-30 was never the most powerful cartridge in north America, I offer up as evidence the Sharps 45-120 and the 30-40 Krag, both arrived before the 30-30 and both more powerful. There were others.

DWM Bell used a 275 Rigby, not a 276. He also used the 303 British, as he liked the 10 round mag when he had a heard of bulls.

Bullets are made to expand at certian velocity, not yards as you claim. A bulled designed for 30-30 speeds might not work so well in a 30-06 . It might blow up on impact, like a varmite bullet, never making it to the heart/lungs. Resulting in a lost deer.

Anyone that understands Maximum Point Blank Range knows the 30-30 is a 215 yard rifle (deer not pacaderm). As for killing deer at 1000 yards with one, in addition to the tradjectory you better figure in some wind and think about how accurate your rifle is.

You also claim "bullet preformance is what kills and nothing else". Bell didn't think that, and I don't either. Bell knew that where you hit them was more important than what you hit them with.
 
(quoted from post at 17:53:27 09/22/11) Have you ever been deer hunting Dave?
Click to expand...

once or twice, you? Tell me one of them stories about how you gotta go without a bath for a month or so and carry deer balls in your pockets before opening day... Maybe you have to go shoot a few hundred rounds to make sure the gun you just used still shoots good enough for a clean kill....... got enough knives and are they all sharp??

don't be thin skinned, just pokin a little fun
 
well lets see,30-30 was the single most hot rod cartridge in north america for a time,the first cartridge developed soley for smokeless powder in this country,and the 94 winchester was the rifle it came in.( if i recall correctly the 06 was introduced as the 03 in 1903,the 94 model winchester in 1894 so there were a lot of changes in a short period of time so it may be confusing to you.let me attempt to explain,,the french lebel rifle used a 8mm bullet and cartridge was loaded with smokeless powder and it arguably also was the first rifle to do so( i wonder if someone just went in to work one day said "hey lets whip up some powder that doesnt smoke,but we wont test it any way until we can convince the french military to adopt it.of course they will have to build a new rifle so we cant even start till then")?,but the same cartridge had been made long before in black powder versions in another rifle. lebel designed the rifle when it was decided to convert to the then new smokeless powder and their then standard rifle couldnt handle the bore wear and extra pressures. there were at least test rifles before this we KNOW ,SO this was only at most strictly the first smokeless military rifle adopted not made.30-40 krag came out after the model 94 as an answer to the spanish model 93(also a smokeless round) and the model 94 WAS submitted to the US military for testing,it didnt win the contract because it had no magazine cutoff. the so called krag was used in the phillipines and it suffered horrendously in the game fields simply because there were no really good game bullets made for it at the time.just as their wasnt good reliable sporting bullets for any of the smokless cartridges. read the history of the bullet manufacturers of that era.they were operating on entirely new ground. bullets that worked excellent in one rifle were dismal failures in another.thats where proprietary cartridges got its start(hence the 275 riby,the 276 slammer etc).and thats what made the 30-30 work,it had everything,good rifle,good power,good bullet,for the first time everything just fell in step,and it worked . 30-40 never was a real contender for the 30-30s crown for more than one reason. but a big one was that by the time it got out of military hands and hit the shooting public it was already obsolete.45-120 never was the long range cartridge( by anyones standards) that the 30-30 was in the hands of the normal shooter,and was never a real contender anyway as it shed velocity and energy very fast.and the 45-70 was far more popular but it also suffered from lack of long range energy.
go back and read bells story again,in one sentance he will say he was using the 275,and in the next breath the 276,BOTH IDENTICAL to the 7x57 only loaded with cordite.the 275 rigby and the 276 was nothing more than the 7x57 any way you figure it. and you are correct bell used any number of cartridges, but his favorite was the 276,(275 rigby,7x57,7x57R call it what you will)he considered it the perfect size bullet when considering its lenght vrs dia for its weight,and its ability to retain its weight and velocity for maximum penetration(today its known as bullet coefecient(SP) and it turns out he was very nearly exactly right). there is any number of varieties of this basic case size, one will be rimless the other rimmed case,one will have a sharper shoulder,one more body taper ,case capacity,etc are identical. you wont find a single bit of difference in them otherwise other than of course i could sell you some rigby ammo to fit your rigby rifle,or some winchester ammo for your winchester rifle.what if i told you i was building a new gun and making a new cartridge for it,it will be called the 308 x 62.its the latest and greatest whammer jammer of a all round cartridge there is and i'll chamber your 30-06 to it for a very low charge? interested?fact is thats nothing more than the 30-06 to start with.as is the 7.62x62 as loaded lots of places in the world.
YES bullets are made to perform at a certain velocity you are 100% correct.BUT a bullet designed for a 30-30 WILL WORK PERFECTLY in a 30-06.( so will one made for pistols,30 carbines etc)AND IT ABSOLUTLY WONT BLOW UP ON IMPACT when loaded correctly.let me explain AGAIN.take your 30-06 case,load with your favorite powder to get 30-30 velocities,put a bullet designed for that velocity in case and you now have for all intents and puposes a 30-30. simple huh? also load it way higher to near magnum velocities,shoot the 30-30 bullet at exrtremly long range where velocity has fallen off and you AGAIN have what many believe to be the best deer round,and it wont explode there either but again preform wonderfully.but if you load a bullet made for normal 30-06 velocities load it down to 30-30 velocities and go into the brush where 30-30 is considered king , you most likely will have 308 holes with no expansion at all due to the heavier jacket AND you will again have that same problem at extreme long range! .its simply called CUSTOM RELOADING and the 30-06 is one of the most versitile rounds there is for this.there is literally loads for the 30-06 that will take everything from mice and sparrows to the largest polar bear,everyone safe loads and entirely reliable.with one rifle,one size case,you can hunt everything in the world and rarely if ever be UNDER OR OVER gunned except on heavy dangerous game and its killed it fair share of them also..that is the secret of reloading no one mentions anymore,especially gunmakers.
who ever said ANYTHING about maximum point blank range? trajectory is way more than point blank range.if it werent NO ONE COULD shoot 1000 yards!!! no rifle has a mpbr of 1000 yards!!!!if you figure the bullet drop and wind compensation correctly a 30-30 will kill at 1000 yards.the maximum point blank range MYTH has sold more rifles than any other thing in history.its simply a tool someone uses who is either too ignorant,or too lazy to learn how to actually shoot what they have to its fullest potential!.you are 100% CORRECT in one thing,bell knew where to shoot,and that is arguably the most important thing of all.I say arguably simply because without the proper bullet performance,even a well placed shot will cost a awful lot of animals lost.a simple example of this is if you hunted deer with a fmj bullet all the time,you would find some of course ,others could run for a mile or more,never to be recovered.
 
You are as bad at writting as you are of your knowledge of the history of cartridges. I stand by every thing I said earlier, you don't know what ayou are talking about. Because the 30-30 may have been more popular that the 30-40 dosen't make it more powferful. Also the same bullets shot in your hot rod 30-30 could be used in the 30-40. Finally, the 30-06 was developed in 1906. The 30-03 was developed in 1903. They are different. Did I mention that, in addition to not knowing much about guns, you are a lousy writter
 
(quoted from post at 20:22:51 09/25/11) You are as bad at writting as you are of your knowledge of the history of cartridges.
Click to expand...

Somebody had to say something. I really did try to get through the BS and wishful history lesson but by the last post I was done.

Still shaking my head....
 
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