Ignitor Electronic Ignition

[chamsher]

Back again with continuing problems with a new ignitor electronic ignition installation. I bench tested the ignitor furnished with the original purchase of the system containing an ignitor, 4,000volt coil, a new distributor cap, a rotor and plate to hook the new coil wire to the distributor. I tested for problems including reinstalling the points back in the distributor with no problems. The 9N tractor ran good with the points back in it. I then run a test provided for by Pertronix to test the ignitor and the ignitor did not perform according to their test results indicating a bad ignitor. I called their toll free number and after doing some tests for them, they sent me another ignitor.

I installed the new ignitor and the engine still does not start and run. I get no sparks to the spark plugs. I'm getting power to the coil. With my DC tester on the positive and neg poles of the coil, I'm getting juice there. However, when I turn on the switch and check the coil to distributor wire with negative to battery I get continuous voltage with no fluctuation when I engage the starter. In other words, I'm getting continuous juice to the distributer but it is not being distributed to the plugs for some reason. This indicates that the spinning of the rotor is not getting juice to the plugs. I'm confused by this since the distributor cap is new and the rotor is new. I checked the rotor for proper installation and it is good. Also, the voltage going to the distributor appears to be no different than that going into the coil from the switch. I know that the distributor parts other than the ignitor and coil is working good since the tractor run good with the points installed. What am I missing other than my questions about the coil, that I have indicated above? And, if it is the coil; what test do I need to check it out further? If I had not already purchased this electronic ignition with no return, I would go back to the points since they were performing pretty good.

 

[Steve@Advance]

From what you are describing, you have 12v+ to the coil, continuous 12v on the (used to be) points side even when cranking the engine, no pulsing voltage, therefore no high voltage out of the coil, correct?

You did remove the condenser?

About all I can suggest is to get the distributor out on the bench, double check all the connections. Temporary it up to a battery, pos to the coil and Pertronix red lead, neg to the distributor case. Do what you have to do to temporary the coil connections so you can see what is going on. Rotate the distributor by hand and do your voltage tests.

If still no spark, leave everything laid out and ready, get customer service back on the phone and go through it again. I suspect there is an open connection somewhere between the trigger and the coil or the trigger is not grounded to the case.

 

[chamsher]

Thanks Steve, I will try that.

 

[deanostoybox]

Helped a friend install one of those once. Did like you are describing. There was a "flashing" on one end of the magnet ring that prevented the ring from going down far enough on the distributor cam for the magnets to align properly with the Hall effect sensor in the module. After removing the "flashing" (it broke away cleanly and easily) and pushing the magnet ring down flush with the bottom of the distributor cam, it made spark. Something to check.

 

[Indiana Ken]

(quoted from post at 18:54:27 12/28/18)
1) ".... I then run a test provided for by Pertronix to test the ignitor and the ignitor did not perform according to their test results indicating a bad ignitor. I called their toll free number and after doing some tests for them, they sent me another ignitor...."

2) ".... I'm getting power to the coil. With my DC tester on the positive and neg poles of the coil, I'm getting juice there...."

3) ".... However, when I turn on the switch and check the coil to distributor wire with negative to battery I get continuous voltage with no fluctuation when I engage the starter.

4) ".... In other words, I'm getting continuous juice to the distributor but it is not being distributed to the plugs for some reason. Also, the voltage going to the distributor appears to be no different than that going into the coil from the switch...."

I purchased a similar kit to run a round can coil on a front mount distributor. Mine requires converting the tractor to 12 volt negative ground and uses the Pertronix module to replace the breaker points. I assume your kit is also for 12 volt negative ground. I have not installed mine yet so I am most interested in what you find with your installation.

1a) You stated the test provided by Pertronix indicated your module was bad. Have you run that test on the replacement module? If so, what were the results?

2a) You stated you have your meter on the positive and negative terminals of the coil. Does that mean the positive lead of the meter is on the positive coil terminal and the negative lead of meter is on the negative terminal of the coil? If so, voltage there means the pertronix module is conducting to ground (similar to the points being closed). If the pertronix was not conducting you would read 0 volts.

3a) For this test you should have the positive meter lead on the negative terminal of the coil. The black wire of the Pertronix module should also be connected to this coil terminal. The negative meter lead should be connected to the metal case of the distributor (tractor ground). The negative terminal of the battery should be connected to tractor ground. As the starter cranks the engine the voltage at the negative terminal of the coil should cycle from 12 volts to 0 volts as the Pertronix model triggers, conducting and non-conducting.

4a) "Continuous juice" when connected as in 3a indicates the Pertronix module is not triggering. It could be a connection problem, magnetic problem (see other post) or a second bad module (unlikely.!

Good Luck

 

[RobCons]

Cant remeber the tractor your working on but I've got a Pertronix on a 4000 model. Its a 12v negative ground system. I have 12v come from the ignition switch connected to positve side of coil. Black wire from Pertronix also connects to positive side of coil. Red wire from Pertronix connects to negative side of coil. Points and condenser are removed from distributor. Pertronix attaches where the points did. Ring slips over the center post of distributor. Put dust cap, little clip, rotor button, and cap back on. Plug wires on in correct order and it should go.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 14:07:37 12/29/18) Cant remeber the tractor your working on but I've got a Pertronix on a 4000 model. Its a 12v negative ground system. I have 12v come from the ignition switch connected to positve side of coil. Black wire from Pertronix also connects to positive side of coil. Red wire from Pertronix connects to negative side of coil. Points and condenser are removed from distributor. Pertronix attaches where the points did. Ring slips over the center post of distributor. Put dust cap, little clip, rotor button, and cap back on. Plug wires on in correct order and it should go.

f I understand what you say, and it functions, then you must be red/black color blind. I think such post will only add to confusion.

 

[RobCons]

You are correct on both points. I am color blind. I posted from memory before so went a checked. Black wire goes to negative, red goes to positive. I would post a picture but I have trouble with that task. Sorry.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 20:43:34 12/29/18) You are correct on both points. I am color blind. I posted from memory before so went a checked. Black wire goes to negative, red goes to positive. I would post a picture but I have trouble with that task. Sorry.

o apology needed..............we all have our moments. Just trying to clarify.

 

[901sos]

To the naysayers of the Pertronics Igniter electronic ignitions, I have a few of these kits that i have installed on different makes of tractors some of which are 10 plus years old & only had one go bad & i think that was self inflicted. I can tell you they are VERY sensitive to voltage. After haveing one fail trying to start it while battery charger was hooked up on boost i will NEVER AGAIN try to start or turn key on while charger or jumper cables are connected period!!! If battery is not strong enough to start i now make sure key is off & charge with jumper cables cables or charger for awhile then unhook them before trying to start again. (Just my experience & my opinion)

 

[chamsher]

I appreciate your taking the time to help me with this problem.
I have taken my distributor off of the motor for bench testing and have performed several tests with no success or at least, I'm still in the dark on the solution to my problem, (no sparks to the plugs).
Indiana, I will go through the tests you suggested first.
1(a)Here is the test of Pertronix's on the exciter or Ignitor. Connect the Ignitor plate to the negative battery terminal. Connect the red ignitor wire to the battery positive terminal. Attach the black lead from the voltmeter to the ignitor black wire. Attach the red lead from the voltmeter to the ignitor red wire. Rotate the magnet sleeve in front of the module, the meter should fluctuate between battery voltage and O volts. A constant measurement indicates that the power transistor or hall cell may have failed.Results of my test: The voltmeter gave a constant power reading with no fluctuation.

2(a) What you said is what I did. Except I pointed out that I also had a reading by connecting the positive voltmeter to the center of the coil and the negative terminal of the coil and the result was a constant power reading even when I cranked the starter. I cranked the starter on both of the readings, voltmeter on positive and negative poles of the coil and voltmeter positive on center and negative on negative pole of the coil.
3(a) Results: I had a 0 reading on the voltmeter with no fluctuation.
4(a) As noted above, I had a 0 reading on the voltmeter.

Thanks for your comments and suggestions


deanostoybox: There does not appear to be any obstructions. The Ignitor plate that replaced the points plate fit down well allowing the ring holder to slide into grove well. Also, I had no problems with the points plate and the points in getting fire to the plugs. I even reinserted the points after I began to have problems with the electronic ignitor to check out my switch, connections and the motor started and run fine. Thanks for your suggestion.

Steve: The answer to the first question is, yes. There was no high voltage coming out of the coil and the voltage did not fluctuate when I cranked the starter.

The answer to your suggestion: I have tried rotating the distributer by hand plus various test including inserting a spark plug into the center of the coil by means of and spark tester with a plug and I touched the negative of the battery while cranking the starter and I did get one spark at the plug only once. I could never duplicate this again. The plug only spark one time not several times.
Thanks for your suggestions.

I appreciate each of you that have responded. If you do not have other suggestions, I will be talking with Pertronix about troubleshooting this problem or refunding my money. I'm sure confused.

 

[Bob]

(quoted from post at 16:56:18 12/31/18) I appreciate your taking the time to help me with this problem.
I have taken my distributor off of the motor for bench testing and have performed several tests with no success or at least, I'm still in the dark on the solution to my problem, (no sparks to the plugs).
Indiana, I will go through the tests you suggested first.
1(a)Here is the test of Pertronix's on the exciter or Ignitor. Connect the Ignitor plate to the negative battery terminal. Connect the red ignitor wire to the battery positive terminal. Attach the black lead from the voltmeter to the ignitor black wire. Attach the red lead from the voltmeter to the ignitor red wire. Rotate the magnet sleeve in front of the module, the meter should fluctuate between battery voltage and O volts. A constant measurement indicates that the power transistor or hall cell may have failed.Results of my test: The voltmeter gave a constant power reading with no fluctuation.

2(a) What you said is what I did. Except I pointed out that I also had a reading by connecting the positive voltmeter to the center of the coil and the negative terminal of the coil and the result was a constant power reading even when I cranked the starter. I cranked the starter on both of the readings, voltmeter on positive and negative poles of the coil and voltmeter positive on center and negative on negative pole of the coil.
3(a) Results: I had a 0 reading on the voltmeter with no fluctuation.
4(a) As noted above, I had a 0 reading on the voltmeter.

Thanks for your comments and suggestions


deanostoybox: There does not appear to be any obstructions. The Ignitor plate that replaced the points plate fit down well allowing the ring holder to slide into grove well. Also, I had no problems with the points plate and the points in getting fire to the plugs. I even reinserted the points after I began to have problems with the electronic ignitor to check out my switch, connections and the motor started and run fine. Thanks for your suggestion.

Steve: The answer to the first question is, yes. There was no high voltage coming out of the coil and the voltage did not fluctuate when I cranked the starter.

The answer to your suggestion: I have tried rotating the distributer by hand plus various test including inserting a spark plug into the center of the coil by means of and spark tester with a plug and I touched the negative of the battery while cranking the starter and I did get one spark at the plug only once. I could never duplicate this again. The plug only spark one time not several times.
Thanks for your suggestions.

I appreciate each of you that have responded. If you do not have other suggestions, I will be talking with Pertronix about troubleshooting this problem or refunding my money. I'm sure confused.

Best to keep you meter test lead away from the center terminal of the coil!

When you look closely at the little magnet ring, can you see the outline of the 4 little rectangular magnets that are covered with the translucent tape?

They are what triggers the module, and must pass in CLOSE proximity to the sensitive area of the module (where there's a Hall-effect transistor cleverly hidden), to bad they don't mark that spot!

Is the magnet ring CLOSE to the module, closer the better, so long as it doesn't physically touch.

Also, the "fore and aft" position of the magnet ring is critical, if for some reason the magnet ring is not where it's designed to be in relation to the hidden sensor, the sensor won't be triggered as the magnets pass.

 

[Steve@Advance]

Everything I have heard about Pertronix customer service has always been positive.

If they can't talk you through it, maybe you could send the unit, distributor, and coil to them, let them bench test it and get it working...

Can't hurt to ask.

 

[chamsher]

Bob, thank you for your comment and suggestion. I'm completely in the dark with regard to the magnet ring and the 4 magnets. I have had several including a local fella talk about these magnets, but I have not followed through to find these magnets and study the problem that alignment could have on the firing of the ignitor.
I have now looked and thought about the potential for problems based on your comments. Are these magnets in the area of the cam that is uneven and caused the points to open and close when they were installed? If so, and I think I now see them. The ignitor module is set on two previously positioned screw studs which were in the ignitor plate supplied with the ignitor. While the magnets turn within approximately 1/4 plus inches of the ignitor. Without repositioning the screw studs, I could not move the magnets any closer to the ignitor. However, that leaves the other potential for problems of the "fore and aft" of these magnets.
As I was viewing the distributor I realized that the magnets could be moved a little higher because there was a little play in the up or down of the cam. Further inspection, revealed the bottom of the cam that feeds though the bottom of the distributor was allowing the centrifugal weights attached at the base of the cam to rub against the bottom of the distributor. Its possible that either I or someone has lost a washer that would probably fit between the centrifugal weights and the bottom of the distributor. The washer would not raise the magnet much but it does appear that it would be enough to align better with the ignitor. Therefore, I'm going to try that to see if it will correct the problem. I'll let you know whether or not this solves the problem.

 

[JMOR]

I recall some Pertronix data specified a magnet to module clearance/gap of 0.060 inch or less, but not rubbing.

 

[Indiana Ken]

To find the magnets:

- Wrap the outside diameter of the black plastic magnet ring in one layer of masking tape.

- Spread some iron fillings, in a thin layer on a piece of paper. The dust from around your bench grinder should work as a source for iron fillings.

- Roll the magnet ring in the iron fillings. Each magnet will be evident by the iron fillings clinging to the tape.

- To remove the iron fillings simply unwrap the tape.

- Enjoy .... forget where you heard this and take full credit for your skill.

 

[Indiana Ken]

I have two of the pertronix kits. A 12 volt negative ground kit to run a round can coil and a 6 volt positive ground kit to use the OEM coil. I checked the gap between the black plastic magnet wheel and the Pertronix trigger module. The gap measured .055" on the 12 volt kit and .045" on the 6 volt kit, an average of .050". You stated the gap on your kit is .250" or 5 times greater.

I bench tested my 12 volt kit connected as per the Pertronix test outlined in your post. When tested in this manner, the meter shows 12 volts when no magnet is present and 0 volts when the module is triggered by the magnet. I found the center, lower half of the module to be most sensitive to the magnet. I was also able to trigger the module using a small (pencil) magnetic pickup tool. I was unable to trigger the module with the magnet wheel at a distance (gap) of .250" from the module.

I would suggest the .250" magnet wheel to trigger module gap should be reduced to something closer to .050". Perhaps your kit has the wrong parts or is mis-assembled ......?

 

[chamsher]

Indiana Ken: Thanks for your comments and findings. You are evidently right in regard to distance of the module from the magnets. I know that I have installed the module correctly because it only fits one way on the plate that they sent to replace the points plate. Also, when I looked at the instructions for installing the parts, there is a picture of a distributor with the module installed on it which is not completely a clear picture, because it is a cut away with half of the picture covered by the cap. But the other half appears to reveal a plate similar to the one they sent with the module installed the same way that I installed it on my distributor. The only thing I can conclude from all this is that the magnet ring in my distributor is smaller than those in your distributor which causes the magnets to pass the module between 1/4" to 3/8" distance.
So I did two checks on this; (1) I installed the module temporarily as close to the module as I could without the magnet ring hitting it as it turned. I tested it and there was no response from the module. upon turning the magnet ring there was no variation in power. It had continuous power. (2) I installed the module temporarily with the module turned around in the event that I had the wrong side turned towards the magnet ring. Results; no change in power to the module. It had continuous power with no fluctuation.
Then I did something that I believe you suggested. I installed tape on the magnet ring and placed medal filing on the ring. None of the filings clung to the ring. I then touch one of the magnets with a small piece of metal and there did not appear to be any magnetic power in the magnet.
This brought up a question to me, I had not thought about before. When the distributor had the points in it, what use were the magnets to that system since the magnet ring is not a ring at all? It is a four cornered ring which operated the points opening and closing by the rounded corners on the ring. That being the case, why would they make and install this magnetic ring if it is of no use in a point system. Did I miss something in my thinking on this matter?

My last question does not make a "hill of beans" of difference to the issue I'm presented with on this distributor. Hope you can resolve my confusion and problem.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 17:52:01 01/04/19) Indiana Ken: Thanks for your comments and findings. You are evidently right in regard to distance of the module from the magnets. I know that I have installed the module correctly because it only fits one way on the plate that they sent to replace the points plate. Also, when I looked at the instructions for installing the parts, there is a picture of a distributor with the module installed on it which is not completely a clear picture, because it is a cut away with half of the picture covered by the cap. But the other half appears to reveal a plate similar to the one they sent with the module installed the same way that I installed it on my distributor. The only thing I can conclude from all this is that the magnet ring in my distributor is smaller than those in your distributor which causes the magnets to pass the module between 1/4" to 3/8" distance.
So I did two checks on this; (1) I installed the module temporarily as close to the module as I could without the magnet ring hitting it as it turned. I tested it and there was no response from the module. upon turning the magnet ring there was no variation in power. It had continuous power. (2) I installed the module temporarily with the module turned around in the event that I had the wrong side turned towards the magnet ring. Results; no change in power to the module. It had continuous power with no fluctuation.
Then I did something that I believe you suggested. I installed tape on the magnet ring and placed medal filing on the ring. None of the filings clung to the ring. I then touch one of the magnets with a small piece of metal and there did not appear to be any magnetic power in the magnet.
This brought up a question to me, I had not thought about before. When the distributor had the points in it, what use were the magnets to that system since the magnet ring is not a ring at all? It is a four cornered ring which operated the points opening and closing by the rounded corners on the ring. That being the case, why would they make and install this magnetic ring if it is of no use in a point system. Did I miss something in my thinking on this matter?

My last question does not make a "hill of beans" of difference to the issue I'm presented with on this distributor. Hope you can resolve my confusion and problem.

ery difficult to determine what you are talking about! There is NO magnet ring with points! :roll:

 

[deanostoybox]

"When the distributor had the points in it, what use were the magnets to that system since the magnet ring is not a ring at all? It is a four cornered ring which operated the points opening and closing by the rounded corners on the ring"

You re describing the distributor cam. The magnet ring is a round plastic thing that has four magnets embedded in it and slips over the distributor cam. Comes in the kit. The ring would fill the space between the distributor cam and the module.

 

[Indiana Ken]

A Pertronix ignition kit has two components that replace the points. One is the trigger module which is a black plastic box and has two wires coming out of it. I am sure you have this part. The other part is the magnet ring which is also black plastic. It is .530" high with an outside diameter of 1.295" and a .785" diameter opening through the center. This opening also has an four sided lobed section to fit over the point cam in your distributor. This part will have a 1247 number marked on it. It is evident that you do not have this part and will need to obtain it.

In your instruction sheet, Part # 1247XT:

Ignitor Fitment

7) Install the magnet sleeve onto the point cam. (This is the magnet ring I described above and it is pushed onto the point cam.)

Illustration C

Yes, the magnet ring is shown as a dark black circle under the bearing support bracket. The trigger module is (hidden under the distributor cap) located at the 10-11 O-clock position. Note, the flat side of the module will be closest to the magnet ring. I don't believe it will fit the other way.

 

[chamsher]

Thanks Ken; you have been so helpful in answering my questions concerning the magnetic ring. No wonder, I have had so much problems in trying to follow all of the suggestions that you and others on the forum have given me to sort out why my Ignitor was not working. While several have mentioned the magnetic ring and the magnets, I did not have that part sent to me, so I was trying to make the distributor work without it. I'm sorry for being so dense about this. What is even more embarrassing is that it took so long for me to understand the problem. Ken, your comments were right on the mark and, of course, got to the root of the problem. I was about to quit and go back to my points on the tractor and count the cost of the Ignitor Kit as a lost cause.

I have already addressed an email to Yesterday's tractors about the missing part. They are closed for the weekend, so will call them Monday to have the missing part shipped to me. Thanks again for your great help.

 

[Indiana Ken]

Thanks for the kind words. When you get the ring roll it in iron fillings - you will see four spots where the magnets are.