First post, first tractor 841 Powermaster

[Rich R]

Hello all!
This looks like the place to be to learn about old tractors! I type slow and have too much to do so I'll keep it short for now. About a year ago we bought a old dilapidated farm on 9.25 acres in North Central Florida. We're renovating the house and the property with the goal of providing comfortable shelter and the ability to produce some food. I recently bought a '61 841 Powermaster, my first tractor and it's the same vintage as me! I'm a life long hotrodder, mechanic and general fix it guy. So far have a brush hog, a box blade and a boom lift for implements. I'm sure that I'll have many more questions and hopefully some time for socializing in the future. But for now my first questions is there a more modern upgrade for the oil bath air filter? Maybe something that retains the look of the original part with a modern element inside? Since I'm wet behind the ears in regards to tractors, I'll ask what's normally considered a safe sustained operating RPM? The same for water temperature?
TIA and happy to have found this place!
Best,
Rich in Archer

 

[Rich R]

Before anyone mentions it, yes, I know, I need to get my hands on the correct manuals. If someone can point me towards the right ones, digital or print, it'd be much appreciated...

 

[38 Sears Roebuck]

Welcome to YT. I'm kinda new here
to. These people are a wealth of
information. I'm sure you will be
able to find someone to help.

 

[Rich R]

(quoted from post at 14:58:57 06/12/23) Welcome to YT. I'm kinda new here
to. These people are a wealth of
information. I'm sure you will be
able to find someone to help.

Thanks friend!
That's what I'm hoping!

 

[Dieselsbest]

Welcome to YT!

 

[leroy in ne]

General info this forum, more info further down on the Ford forum. Manuals and many parts are available on this site. Hope this helps. Leroy

 

[TractorDad3]

Welcome! Ill let the pros answer on operating temp and
RPMs. Gas or diesel? Follow your manuals close when you
get them, theyre the best investment for your machine
quickly followed by the maintenance outlined in them. Here
are the four I use.
Amazing advice on these forums!

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

Short answer about the air cleaner is no. There is nothing more modern that still looks "stock." That's because...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the oil bath air cleaner, and no need to upgrade. Look at how old the tractor is, and it's still running. If the oil bath cleaner were a problem that tractor would have been busted to pieces and put on a ship to China long ago, not sitting in your yard ready to work today.

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the oil in that air cleaner wasn't changed at anywhere near the recommended interval (i.e. daily) either. Probably months or years between changes. Right or wrong, that's reality, and the tractor's still running. Change the oil and forget about it like most everyone does.

A "safe sustained engine RPM" is its rated RPM, which is generally wide open throttle under full load. tractor data dot com lists the 841 engine as either 2000RPM for the gas or 2200RPM for the LP and diesel options.

Water boils at 212F. Generally anything under 200F on the temperature gauge is acceptable as long as it's stable. If it has a thermostat it's probably set for no more than 180F, which is most likely where it will settle if all is well.

 

[showcrop]

You see a lot of them with K&N filters. You can get a size that will go right onto your carburetor intake. I am not recommending them, after all as a YTer I am sworn to oppose anything that resembles an upgrade over 50 year old original. The K&Ns are washable and you get oil that you spray onto them to make them catch finer particles. You need to service your original frequently and be mindful that they tend to get water in the bowl. Many bowls have holes rusted in the bottom. One of mine Fords has a K&N attached to the intake tube so it is up under the hood right beside the filter housing. You can't tell that it is there and it appears that the original is still in use.

 

[caterpillar guy]

As on old hot rodder you already know about what things should run at and engine speed will more than likely govern out at the appropriate speed unless played with. As for the oil bath there is no need to change that they have worked flawlessly for half a century now so why change success. We still have a few engines as old or older with oil baths on them. We change the oil in them once per year since they probably don't get 100 hour per year on them with all the tractors we have and use as well the one used the most is not in much for dirt and winter is pretty clean with the snow on the ground.

 

[Leroy]

The oil bath filter is better than and cartrige filter made. It just takes
a bit of time and knolage about them. If you are working in VERRY VERRY
dirty conditiond like where you cannot breath any air in your knse than
pull the bottom of at end of day and take your finger and use it to see if
any dirt on bottom under the oil. It was recemonded by manufactor to do
that mut highly unessary. They if there was a 64 inch of dirt recemonded
cleaning out and throwing old oil out, nessary or bright idea NO As lomg
as dirt does not build up in bottom of canister forget it, and even if
very dirty conditions once a week to check only and possibly once a nonth
to drain oil out and clean bottom of canistor and you can evem put the old
oil back with just adding a couple of tablespoods to bring it up to leve;
And the tractor that has been with me for 79 years never got water in the
canister. And the one that is 3 years older than me has never that I ever
knew got water in there. It just takes a little thought about what you are
doing instead of just yanking a good paper filter out and putting a lot pf
dollars in. DO NOT EVEN consider getting rid of that oil bath. And my
newest tractor a 1941 Ford (n came to be with me when I was 9 months old
and the older one is a Ford 3 years older than me. As long as I am living
they will never changed on the oil bah filter, the orignal oil filter, the
6 volt system that inclufs no electronic ignitation. I would not buy a
tractor that was messed up with that stuff.

 

[Steve in IL]

Welcome Rich. I will second the comments that there is
nothing wrong with the original oil bath filter. Be certain
however, that in addition to regular cleaning/oil changing
that the 69+ year air intake tubing is solid/leak free.

Also, I am a fan of leaving your tractor as a 6 volt positive
ground system. Our 1958 641 still has the original
generator and starter (both locally rebuilt a time or two).
It starts and runs perfectly.

Good luck!

 

[37 chief]

I will agree with Leroy on the oil bath air filter. I have oil bath filters on my late 30's Model M tractors. I do think they are a better air filter. Stan

 

[RobCons]

The existing oil bath filter is just fine assuming it does not have a leak and the wire mesh is in it. I run my 4 cylinder 4000, about the same tractor as yours, around 1500 rpm or less for almost all work. These older tractors don't run near as fast as the newer ones. Engine temp is in the green. I say that because lots of the gauges are color coded with no numbers. If yours has numbers below 200 but above 160 or so would be fine. It may get over 200 sometimes in the summer when bush hogging. Keep the chaff off so air flow is not impeded. A shroud helps a lot also. Have fun!

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

(quoted from post at 16:05:25 06/12/23)

You see a lot of them with K&N filters. You can get a size that will go right onto your carburetor intake. I am not recommending them, after all as a YTer I am sworn to oppose anything that resembles an upgrade over 50 year old original. The K&Ns are washable and you get oil that you spray onto them to make them catch finer particles. You need to service your original frequently and be mindful that they tend to get water in the bowl. Many bowls have holes rusted in the bottom. One of mine Fords has a K&N attached to the intake tube so it is up under the hood right beside the filter housing. You can't tell that it is there and it appears that the original is still in use.

K&N's do not look "stock" in any way, and are at best no better at filtering than a properly maintained oil bath. They're pretty famous for doing a poor job of filtering air despite the claims they make in the advertisements.

Yeah bowls have holes rusted in them but I've never seen that on a running driving tractor. Only on junkers that have been sitting out with the cap off the intake for decades so the rain can run in.

 

[Rich R]

Firstly, thanks for the warm welcome and good advice!
I should have stated that my 841 has a gas engine. My concern about the oil bath air filter was that the suggested service interval is daily and I surely don't have time for that! Weekly or monthly depending on hours of use I can handle. I plan to work this old boy hard, but I don t want to abuse it too much if it can be avioded. If I'm understanding the posts above correctly, I should be fine brush hogging @ 1500-2000 RPM. It looks like there is plain water in the radiator. I think that it would be better to run a mix with better cooling properties and a higher boiling point. I understand that around 180- 210 is optimal, leaning towards the lower end. I've been cutting some pretty heavy brush and it did seem to have an easier time in 1st gear around 2000RPM. The blades are quite dull and rounded. I'm heading out to the shop to sharpen them now. I'll not turn them in to machetes, just restore them to a decent angle with some bite.
Thanks again for your knowledge and advice!

 

[docmirror]

For the oil bath filter, go buy a gallon of 30wt NON-detergent. The detergent oils are made for modern engines and retain particles in suspension until the oil is changed.

Non-detergent oil will allow the particles captured during run time to sink to the bottom of the little canister. If you are careful, you can pour off the relatively clean oil above, and then scrape out the dirt from the canister, and then put the oil back in. With modern detergent oils the particles are held in suspension.

You don't need to clean it every 8 hours of run time, but consider the work conditions, and hours. If it's very dusty, every 25 hours of run time would be ok. If it's not driven into a lot of dust you might get away with 40 hours run time. It's not a set time, but it's how dusty the conditions are.

You used to be able to buy a water canister pre-filter. There is an attachment to the intake on the left side of the hood which sticks out, and has a glass jar below it. There is a turbine effect for the intake air, and particulates are dumped into the water jar, which then can be removed by just tossing out the water, and refilling the jar. It's hard to see behind the loader arm, but my Ford has the water jar pre-filter. Don't know if it's still avail anywhere, maybe call around to tractor junk yards and ask for it. This makes seeing the amount of dirt, and changing it out very quick and easy.

Another way is called the snorkel intake. It's basically a long tube that sticks out the side of the hood side and goes up 3-4 feet with a little hat or sock on top. The air more than 8' off the ground is usually much cleaner than right about the normal intake area. I haven't seen a snorkel intake for a while, but with some exhaust pipe, you could have the shop bend up what's need and make your own.

This post was edited by docmirror on 06/13/2023 at 11:46 am.

 

[docmirror]

Engine temps.

These are not modern engines designed to run at 192-208F. The thermostat should be 160F. A very low pressure radiator cap, and unless there is an aftermarket overflow tank, leave 2" of clear space at the top of the radiator for expansion. If you fill it full, it will just dump out 1-2" of coolant each time it's up to temp.

Ethelyn glycol can be added to protect from freezing, but it will not increase the cooling capacity of the water. Temps over 190F should be avoided, and also, cool down after a hot use is a good idea to keep from warping a 60 year old head. Let it idle for a bit after a hard work and let the temps get back down to 160 or so before shutting it off. I usually close the fuel petcock once I'm done, and let the fuel in the line and float empty out for about 2 min, then turn off the key.

The 8x1 tractors are a great strong old beast. My only complait is that few were ordered with power steering. I have a 961 and the power steering makes life on the tractor much nicer.

 

[Rich R]

Thanks gents! And thanks doc for the temp heads-up!
I'm wanting to install a new amp meter. I have a 12v alternator conversion. Am I correct in understanding that the amp gauge installs in line from the alternator to the battery input? I understand that it's more accurate to run all load on one side but I'm really just looking for conformation that it's charging. If I'm correct, what gauge wire is recommended? TIA!

 

[Destroked 450]

Welcome to the forum
I grew up on the older 850 model
I don t know the engine rpm to get 540 pto on the 4 spd model, our 850 was 1800 rpm, my 881 was 1900 for 540 and 2100 for 1000 pto
Best to use a digital tach to find 540 pto speed, whatever the dash rpm is is where you should run it
Operating a mower or other pto driven device at slower than recommended 540 pto actually works the tractor harder
We worked our 850 at 1800 for hours at a time, when traveling on the road the throttle was pulled back as for as it would go

200 degrees won t hurt the engine but most Fords only have a 7 psi radiator cap, so it will start boiling the coolant out around 215-220, keeping it under 190 would be better
That model came with a charge indicator light that is all you really need, if you want another gauge I d get a volt meter