IH 404 clutch not engaging

[rlo]

Got out my loader 404 to move a little dirt. After a few minutes had no clutch. I've made no change in adjustment/linkage and can see no loose or missing bolts. Can see the throw out bearing does not fully engage forward as there is a shiny maybe 1/2 on the shaft still showing.
What could make the clutch stop working so suddenly if the linkage has not been touched? Clutch was replaced 11 years ago and have had no sign of a problem till now. At most I put 5 hrs a year on the tractor w/ brush hog, tiller, & loader. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks. RLO

 

[used red MN]

Tell me your definition of a ..clutch not engaging.. In
mechanics terms a clutch engages to drive the
transmission shafts and move the machine. I get the
idea that what you are maybe describing something
else. Truly not engaging probably means the friction
material has stripped or cracked and broken off the
clutch plate. The throw out bearing moves forward
from the spot it normally sets when the pedal is
pushed to release the clutch and stop movement. So if
you are looking at the TO bearing and no body is
pushing the clutch pedal I would say what you are
seeing is normally.

 

[rlo]

(quoted from post at 01:33:16 10/28/22) Tell me your definition of a ..clutch not engaging.. In
mechanics terms a clutch engages to drive the
transmission shafts and move the machine. I get the
idea that what you are maybe describing something
else. Truly not engaging probably means the friction
material has stripped or cracked and broken off the
clutch plate. The throw out bearing moves forward
from the spot it normally sets when the pedal is
pushed to release the clutch and stop movement. So if
you are looking at the TO bearing and no body is
pushing the clutch pedal I would say what you are
seeing is normally.

Sorry I was not clear. Pushing the clutch pedal has no effect. If in gear the and you push the clutch pedal the tractor keeps moving. If running out of gear and push the clutch to put it in gear it grinds teeth and will not go in gear. Tractor lurches if you try to start in gear with clutch pedal depressed. What I don't get is this happened in minutes from working fine to not working. Thank you.

 

[used red MN]

If you do not see anything wrong with the linkage or
the parts that operate the throw out bearing the
following has probably happened. You may need to
have someone push it while you look underneath. Did
the free play suddenly increase. This means when you
push the pedal down it pushes easy with little
resistance and then hits something that feels like the
clutch has the resistance it normally had? If so likely
the clutch plate lining came off and now pieces are
stacked on top each other and the clutch pressure
plate cannot move the plate far enough away to
release the clutch. To see the linkage in the link under
clutch go to subsection 057 to see the linkage.
CNHI IH 404 parts diagrams

 

[caterpillar guy]

Sounds like a few possibilities. From a sticky throw out bearing to a stuck pilot bearing,broken lining like Red said or even a clutch facing sticking too the flywheel or pressure plate. I'd start by having somebody holding the clutch pedal out to release the clutch. Then look to see if the clutch disc will slide a bit on the shaft and if you can turn it a wee bit so it is not stuck to the flywheel or pressure plate. Easier to see up in there before you start spraying stuff around there. If this is all loose like it should be, and if the pressure plate turns free of the rest of the components then with the pedal pushed see if the shaft turns when you bump the starter in gear. Pull the coil wire off for this so it doesn't start when you bump it over or just turn the flywheel with a bar or fan with tractor in gear this will tell if the pilot bearing is stuck. cause with clutch released tractor should not move in gear if flywheel is turned.

 

[Mrfred54]

With clutch not releasing, a few things could happen. Throw out bearing bad,throw out
bearing carrier fork cracked or broke,pivot pin on one of the pressure plate fingers
broke or is coming out,clutch disc coming apart and piled up,pilot bearing froze up.
Not sure bout 404 but if its like a 424, it has a dual stage clutch,one disc drives
transmission and the other drives the pto. Pushing the pedal half way down releases
the transmission clutch and pedal all the way down releases the pto. This is how you
would have live power for the pto. One other thing to check, make sure clutch pedal is
not slipping on the cross shaft of the throw out bearing

 

[rlo]

Fred, Cat, & Red
The clutch pedal is a wet noodle, virtually no resistance. Looks like the clutch release bearing is just shy of depressing the fingers on the plate. (I have manuals.) the release bearing is free spins & slides on shaft. Cant see anything wrong or any debris anywhere and no noise involved except for gear grinding. Bumped forward with starter. No change. Seems clutch is stuck to plate. Unless there are any more tricks, guess I'll be looking for somebody in Mid MI to split & fix. Thank you all for your time & expertise.

 

[used red MN]

McFred, your comments are worthy of mention but the 404 is a modernized Farmall C no live PTO. Check out my link to the parts diagrams. Only one shaft from the clutch to the trans means no live power.
To the original poster I meant to mention this in my other reply. Hopefully you know that is not wise to pull the throttle wide open and slip the clutch to perform your tasks with your loader. A clutch simply will not take that kind of treatment very long. Running a loader on a tractor includes a lot of throttle adjustment. And sorry, you may be the worlds best tractor operator. I just see a lot of city dwellers do this with there riding mowers start it up in the garage and engine is full throttle before they get out of the door. Many are hydrostatic drive these days so it is not a problem on those.

 

[rlo]

Red,
You nailed it. I abused the clutch & fried it. I use the loader to move some fill, black dirt, or put logs on the stand for slabbing. This time was different. After trapping out the muskrats in our pond I had the bright idea of digging out their den hotel. (Tired of new 'rats using the den, caving and trying to mow over.) Now I figured my YouTube moment could be putting the 404 in the pond but I proceeded anyway. So digging a little clay with a 5'loader bucket didn't work out so well for me. Might have been better off getting towed out of the drink! Never been city dweller, operated this tractor 20 yrs, but obviously no expert, and can still do dumb stuff at 70! Thank you all for the help. Maybe I'll be back with questions clutch R&R.

 

[caterpillar guy]

rlo where in mid MI are you at. I'm in Shiawassee county. Corunna is the county seat and 5 miles from me. IF you don't need this tractor immediately I could help you with it if you are not to far off. I'm in themiddle of finishing beans and then finish the corn. Weather permitting about a week or two away from done.

 

[rlo]

Cat,
Not far from you - between DeWitt & St Johns & no rush on getting in done. Thought about trying it myself but my main issues are: right tools & stand to split & knowing how to do it the right way once in there. If you don't mind Here's my email: [email protected] for continuing this discussion. Have a great harvest & Thank you very much for your offer. Richard

 

[Mrfred54]

My bad. I assumed a 404 was like a 424, 444. No so, I also looked up parts diagram and you are right sir. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

(quoted from post at 18:05:50 10/27/22) What I don't get is this happened in minutes from working fine to not working. Thank you.

Well, that's usually how it happens. Loader work is hard on dry clutches. Hard loader work is especially hard...

If your throwout bearing isn't getting close to touching the fingers on the clutch one of two things has happened. First, the fingers have collapsed. Second, the throwout bearing has failed in some fashion. Either way it will have to come apart.

 

[rlo]

I believe clutch was stuck. Towed back & forth in driveway & looked like throw out bearing was much closer to pp. Compounding issue was broken old poor weld on clutch release shaft that occurred after problem when I tried to adjust linkage (hammer involved). Rewelded shaft & now clutch engages/disengages fine. Tractor came with no inspection plate covers & I had dried grass
(nest) in housing. Will order for fab new ones. Thank you all for the help/advice! FYI local shop wanted $4k to R&R clutch ( based on verbal description of problem). Not complaining about that. Just on the lesson: DO SIMPLE STUFF FIRST! It pays off yet again! Thanks & have a great Thanksgiving!