REPOST - battery/electrical decisions

[timsch]

I'm reposting this. The original post showed on the forum list, but there was no body attached that I could see. Mods, please delete one of these if the error is on my end.
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I have a Napa commercial 6V battery in the 8N I bought probably 6 years ago for ~$90. The tractor had not been used much over the last few years, but I was working to get it back to good running condition. It would hold a charge @ ~6.2V and it passed load testing. Last night the tractor fired right up and ran well, but after having it die after taking the throttle too low, I tried to restart it but all I heard was a single click @ the starter relay. I load tested the battery again after that, and it failed miserably. I don't know what changed, but it looks like I need a new battery.

The same battery is now ~$250. I see a tractor supply battery here: https://www.external_link.com/tsc/product/traveller-1-6v-heavy-duty-battery?cm_vc=-10005

Should I expect the NAPA battery to be twice as good as this one given that it's twice as much?

Another issue is that I was trying to troubleshoot a no-charging situation. I did re-polarize the generator by shorting BAT & ARM connections at the relay a couple of times, but never did get it to start charging. I don't have another (good) 6V battery to do a bench test and don't know if I have any other options, such as do the motor test per the manual with a 12V battery.

I'd like to know what condition my generator is in before going in on another 6V battery. If I need a generator rebuild, I'd consider going 12V, particularly if I need the ~$250 battery.

Tractor runs fine otherwise.

 

[JMOR]

Two jumper wires & voltmeter will yield some quick information. Measure battery voltage before starting anything. Start tractor and note if battery voltages increases with engine speed. While running at speed, connect jumper from generator Field terminal to ground and again observe battery voltage for change. Next, leaving field jumper in place, connect another jumper wire from generator armature to non-grounded battery terminal, and note change in battery voltage. Remove Armature to battery jumper before stopping engine. Report voltages observed at each step. If battery voltage increased, then very likely gen is OK, but not VR.

 

[Jim.ME]

The link you posted may be why it is getting blocked in Modern. The link comes up as an error when I open it. And I think the spam filters will stop links to competitors to YT like TSC. Try posting without the link.

 

[timsch]

Good point. Thanks. I'll repost the repost :/

Edit: Since others can see the post, but can't access the link, I'll not repost again and clutter up the board any more. Unfortunately, I don't see a way to edit my initial post since I can't access it.

This post was edited by timsch on 10/26/2022 at 11:33 am.

 

[timsch]

Thanks for the directions, my only option as of now is to jump from a 12V battery and hope the 6V battery has enough juice to keep it running. Would that still give valid results?

 

[Jim.ME]

(quoted from post at 14:31:04 10/26/22) Good point. Thanks. I'll repost the repost :/

Edit: Since others can see the post, but can't access the link, I'll not repost again and clutter up the board any more. Unfortunately, I don't see a way to edit my initial post since I can't access it.

This post was edited by timsch on 10/26/2022 at 11:33 am.

You need to switch to Classic view to see it, but edit only works in Modern, I think. It is blocked from Modern. Here it is copied and pasted with the link deleted so people using Modern can see it. If you want to tell the TSC battery you are looking at, post the TSC part number and a picture, not a link.

Your post minus the link.

I have a Napa commercial 6V battery in the 8N I bought probably 6 years ago for ~$90. The tractor had not been used much over the last few years, but I was working to get it back to good running condition. It would hold a charge @ ~6.2V and it passed load testing. Last night the tractor fired right up and ran well, but after having it die after taking the throttle too low, I tried to restart it but all I heard was a single click @ the starter relay. I load tested the battery again after that, and it failed miserably. I don't know what changed, but it looks like I need a new battery.

The same battery is now ~$250. I see a tractor supply battery here: (link deleted)

Should I expect the NAPA battery to be twice as good as this one given that it's twice as much?

Another issue is that I was trying to troubleshoot a no-charging situation. I did re-polarize the generator by shorting BAT & ARM connections at the relay a couple of times, but never did get it to start charging. I don't have another (good) 6V battery to do a bench test and don't know if I have any other options, such as do the motor test per the manual with a 12V battery.

I'd like to know what condition my generator is in before going in on another 6V battery. If I need a generator rebuild, I'd consider going 12V, particularly if I need the ~$250 battery.

Tractor runs fine otherwise.

 

[JMOR]

Should, just don't leave that 12v on it long....just while starter turning. Make final connect/disconnect away from battery

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley RIP]

ALL batteries are not created equal. Most bargain-basement units sold have poor lifespans, two years on average, so you might think buying a $90 part is a good choice,
you will be buying another and another a few years later. Best to invest in a good brand like INTERSTATE, DEKA, EAST-PENN, DURACELL, or EXIDE. If your basic garage
trickle charger is left unattended, it can boil out the electrolyte and render it junk. A basic trickle charger can't fix a depleted battery. Research Specific
Gravity. Get battery tested at your trusty local shop under load on their machine. You need a good, strong, fully charged battery to:

1. Spin the starter
2. Engage the Bendix
3. Provide voltage to the coil.

As the battery gets weaker, the first thing to fail is your spark. The more current you use to spin the starter, the less you have for the ignition. If your starter
motor pulls the battery down much below 5.2 volts (ref: 6-volt battery) turning over is almost a futile effort. 4 Volts is an almost dead unit. It doesn't really
matter much if the battery is fully charged until you test it correctly. Simply connecting your trickle charger to the battery won't do anything if it is dead. Just
because you have a 6V battery does not mean that your system is wired correctly for the 6V/POS GRN setup. Ditto if a 12V setup as well. One item that is also the usual
suspect for non-starting/non-charging is the lack of a fan belt tensioning bracket whether if using 6V and a GEN or 12V and an ALT.

When your vehicle sets idle for more than a week, the battery will start to deplete the lead plates and you lose specific gravity. You can use a HYDROMETER to test
Specific Gravity see your OEM Owners Manual. They sell cheap little hand ones at many local auto parts outlets and are usually right on the counter. It resembles a
large hypodermic needle and has about a half dozen small colored balls in a solution of Acetone in it. The included chart will tell you how to read the floating
balls. A true battery testing unit will give you better results as well as telling if the battery is good or bad. Take to a shop.

The worse thing for battery life is the constant draining and recharging on it. The best solution is to invest in a good float charger like the DELTRAN BATTERY TENDER
JR (for 6V). Keep it connected when tractor is idle so the battery maintains a constant full charge and is ready to go when needed. Never just start taking parts off
willy-willy and slapping new ones on. Always perform true root cause problem solving methods.

99.98% of all non-starting issues are due to incorrect wiring regadess if 6V or 12V. Lack of the GEN or ALT fan belt tensioner is often the root cause of a weak or
dead battery - without tension, you will never charge the battery. Once all is right with the world, best to invest in a good float charger like the DELTRAN BATTERY
TENDER JR [6V] , $30 avg.

BATTERY TENDER JR (6V) BY DELTRAN:

Tim Daley(MI)

 

[Abbby]

I buy batteries from walmart and have for years without issue. I think the battery in my (12 volt) 9N is over 6 years old. I do not agree with using trickle chargers and believe its another new industry created to sell us more crap. In my shed I have 8 things with batteries, How safe is it to have extension cords running all over and having these devices charging batteries all the time? With that being said a weak battery can cause a no start condition on these tractors. Another reason to have a 12 volt system.

 

[lha]

Following a recomendation from Bruce,I got a Deka battery about 12-14 years ago. The first one lasted around
10 years,I got another and it still works fine. I run a 6v/12v trickle charger that I bought many years ago.
I run it a couple of times during the Winter and after a long rest time when I don't use it.

 

[Jim L WA]

(quoted from post at 04:34:39 10/27/22) I buy batteries from walmart and have for years without issue. I think the battery in my (12 volt) 9N is over 6 years old. I do not agree with using trickle chargers and believe its another new industry created to sell us more crap. In my shed I have 8 things with batteries, How safe is it to have extension cords running all over and having these devices charging batteries all the time? With that being said a weak battery can cause a no start condition on these tractors. Another reason to have a 12 volt system.

Abbby, your choice of course, but these aren't trickle chargers. They are maintenance chargers using pulse technology and voltage regulation. They float the battery at a specific charge, depending on 6 or 12 volts. I use them, but not constantly. I usually put one on various batteries once a month for a couple of days each. I have a '73 Jeep J4000 that's my plow truck. That battery has been in there since Dec. 2004.

 

[timsch]

Results from test (had to jumpstart, but it ran on its 6V battery):

Battery voltage = 6.2V

Battery voltage @ speed= 6.2 - 6.4V, mainly @ 6.2, but jumping sporadically to 6.4

Battery voltage @ speed w/ jumper from Gen field to Gen ground= fluctuating between 6.8 - 7.4V



Battery voltage @ speed w/ jumper from Gen field to Gen ground && jumper from Gen armature to non-ground battery post = fluctuating between 7.2 - 7.6V




Edit:
I did recently clean all contacts @ the VR. I did not do that on the generator, but should have.

Edit #2:
I cleaned the generator wire connections. Unfortunately, all voltage measurements after that were fluctuating between 5.8 & 6.2. All I did was disconnect them, wire brush & scrape with screwdriver where brush didn't work, apply dielectric grease and reassembly, adding zinc plated washers on the armature post because the terminal connection was larger than it should have been. All connections were tightened down. Not sure why it went worse and it's getting too dark to look further into it now....


This post was edited by timsch on 10/27/2022 at 05:17 pm.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 19:38:50 10/27/22) Results from test (had to jumpstart, but it ran on its 6V battery):

Battery voltage = 6.2V

Battery voltage @ speed= 6.2 - 6.4V, mainly @ 6.2, but jumping sporadically to 6.4

Battery voltage @ speed w/ jumper from Gen field to Gen ground= fluctuating between 6.8 - 7.4V

Almost certainly the field contacts in the VR are not closing electrically, since the field to ground simply parallels those contacts.

Battery voltage @ speed w/ jumper from Gen field to Gen ground && jumper from Gen armature to non-ground battery post = fluctuating between 7.2 - 7.6V




Edit:
I did recently clean all contacts @ the VR. I did not do that on the generator, but should have.

Edit #2:
I cleaned the generator wire connections. Unfortunately, all voltage measurements after that were fluctuating between 5.8 & 6.2. All I did was disconnect them, wire brush & scrape with screwdriver where brush didn't work, apply dielectric grease and reassembly, adding zinc plated washers on the armature post because the terminal connection was larger than it should have been. All connections were tightened down. Not sure why it went worse and it's getting too dark to look further into it now....

lmost certainly the field contacts in the VR are not closing electrically, since the field to ground simply parallels those contacts.

This post was edited by JMOR on 10/28/2022 at 07:45 am.

 

[timsch]

I've not made the progress I was hoping for since I'm having intermittent problems with it running.

To recap up to this point

1. I have a weak battery. It'll charge up to 6.2V, but will fail a load test. The electrolyte was tested with a hydrometer, and it is in the "fair" but toward the "replace" markings. It would not start the engine, but would keep it running if I jumped it w/ 12V battery.

2. No charging according to ammeter & VM reading @ battery


Now, I'm trying to check out the voltage regulator according to a PDF titled Testing-Replacing-polarizing-8N-Voltage-Regulator on another tractor club site. I was beginning to do this the other day after jumping the engine, but it abruptly died after running for a minute or two. I checked the battery and it read less than 5v, so I assumed the battery could not provide juice for spark anymore. I charged it back up to 6.2V, but it would not start even with a 12V jump. So then, I go back to test for spark with a test light, and the light flashes as it should. I then pull a spark plug to check for spark while cranking. I didn't see a spark, but did get a shock, but not only that, the engine sputtered. What the heck, I'm thinking in more colorful language. So I put it the plug back in and try to jump it again, and it fires up and runs.

OK, so then on with the tests in the PDF I mentioned. 1st test (#4) was base of VR to good ground. No change on this test. Next test (#5) was to jump GEN to BAT. Immediately when I make this connection, the tractor abruptly dies just as it had before. It would not jump from 12V after this.

I hope someone with more knowledge can make some connections here. I'm scratching my head.

 

[trouttman]

(quoted from post at 15:39:15 11/03/22) I've not made the progress I was hoping for since I'm having intermittent problems with it running.

To recap up to this point

1. I have a weak battery. It'll charge up to 6.2V, but will fail a load test. The electrolyte was tested with a hydrometer, and it is in the "fair" but toward the "replace" markings. It would not start the engine, but would keep it running if I jumped it w/ 12V battery.

2. No charging according to ammeter & VM reading @ battery


Now, I'm trying to check out the voltage regulator according to a PDF titled Testing-Replacing-polarizing-8N-Voltage-Regulator on another tractor club site. I was beginning to do this the other day after jumping the engine, but it abruptly died after running for a minute or two. I checked the battery and it read less than 5v, so I assumed the battery could not provide juice for spark anymore. I charged it back up to 6.2V, but it would not start even with a 12V jump. So then, I go back to test for spark with a test light, and the light flashes as it should. I then pull a spark plug to check for spark while cranking. I didn't see a spark, but did get a shock, but not only that, the engine sputtered. What the heck, I'm thinking in more colorful language. So I put it the plug back in and try to jump it again, and it fires up and runs.

OK, so then on with the tests in the PDF I mentioned. 1st test (#4) was base of VR to good ground. No change on this test. Next test (#5) was to jump GEN to BAT. Immediately when I make this connection, the tractor abruptly dies just as it had before. It would not jump from 12V after this.

I hope someone with more knowledge can make some connections here. I'm scratching my head.

It's your tractor, but the best $200.00 that I have spent in the last few years on something other than women and wine was a 12v converson from this site and new battery from wally world. The reason, could not find a 6v that would last more than a year on a tender.

 

[timsch]

I can appreciate that, and I'm right about there, but am trying to do my due diligence and test these components properly before making that decision.

 

[trouttman]

(quoted from post at 17:31:09 11/03/22)
I can appreciate that, and I'm right about there, but am trying to do my due diligence and test these components properly before making that decision.

Before I converted mine, I went thru 3 batteries in 6 years using a battery maintainer, prior to that I didn't have a problem with 6v batteries that would last for 5-6 years no problems. I also have a truck and jeep and they all use the same size battery. I put the newest battery in the jeep, oldest in the tractor.

 

[Abbby]

Right on Trouttman

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 20:31:09 11/03/22)
I can appreciate that, and I'm right about there, but am trying to do my due diligence and test these components properly before making that decision.

he two jumper test I had you perform showed gen OK, but field contacts not electrically closing, therefore a VR problem. You moved on to other things & this latest of jumpering Arm/Gen to BATT (but doing nothing to field) resulted in little to no gen output & simply tried to drain what little your bad battery had left in it (but still able to run ign) backwards thru the generator, thus starving the ignition & killing engine. Battery needs replacing. Then all my be well & if not work a potential VR field contacts problem. You are somewhat out of luck trying to trouble shoot a charging problem with a bad battery.

 

[timsch]

I didn't really move onto other things. You mentioned the VR not closing electrically, so I was trying to trouble shoot it.

Yeah, it's the catch 22 I'm in with the battery - trying to determine whether it's just a battery that needs replacing, or if it'll be a very expensive battery, relatively speaking compared to 12V, and then a VR on top of that. From what I gather here, I'd be lucky to get a good VR now, with many saying you'll get maybe 1 out of 3 good.

The more sure-fire way to get going, and avoiding future hassles, seems to be the 12V conversion, particularly if the 6V batteries are also becoming suspect as troutman says.

 

[JMOR]

Out of 5 tractors, I have only one that is still 6v. Its battery is from 2017, well over $100 at the time. Starts in a revolution or less. I suspect that batteries are like everything else....you get what you pay for. Why would a battery with 3 cells, made by same company be any worse than their 6 cell battery? Probably mostly "talk". 12v is nice because most of what I own is 12, so makes swapping easy in emergency & alternators are nice & reliable with nearly zero maintenance.

 

[timsch]

I'd imagine the greater expense for the 6V is due to them not being so common. Regardless, they're cost-prohibitive to me @ ~$250 for the same NAPA battery I have now.

Thanks JMOR & everyone else. I'll go with the 12V conversion, keeping the original parts for maybe an original restoration at some point in time.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 12:13:40 11/04/22)
I'd imagine the greater expense for the 6V is due to them not being so common. Regardless, they're cost-prohibitive to me @ ~$250 for the same NAPA battery I have now.

Thanks JMOR & everyone else. I'll go with the 12V conversion, keeping the original parts for maybe an original restoration at some point in time.

f you can make your own brackets, you will do the conversion for a lot less (maybe less than half) than buying the kits. Alts in kits cost a lot more than individually bought at select auto parts sources.

 

[timsch]

I can make my own brackets. Too bad I ordered the kit from this site a couple of hours ago. I'd try to cancel, but considering how valuable this forum is to me, I'll support YT with the purchase.