Reviving an old HF, TO-83196

[Janise]

I have a massey ferguson and it won't turn over. I've gotten a new battery and just put the VR on and still not starting. I have not polarized the VR yet. Also changed the ignition and the wiring to the VR. It's a mess. Another forum member suggested this forum. I'm not sure of the model but I was told it could be a TO-30 based on the serial number. Not sure of the year. The tractor is a mess with twisted wires and wires hanging in the air.

 

[Alex MacEwing]

Good Morn to all. I am the one that brought Janise to this forum......
Been years since I posted on here. She has posted pictures on another forum and I am going to try to drag them over here.
She says the plate below the steering wheel , has TO-85196 on it. This leads me to believe this tractor is roughly a 1952 and was built in the Ferguson factory in or near Detroit Mi.
I'm very familiar with the TEA-20, built in the UK and serviced by John(UK)?? , I had a 1951 and a 1952, but I have Zero experience with the TO family. As I knew there were a lot of TO folks on here, I suggested she post on here....Alex

 

[Alex MacEwing]

I just noticed that Janise has this posting on the Massey Ferguson Forum, I believe it should be on the Ferguson site....

Thanks Alex....

 

[Janise]

How do I do that?

 

[Alex MacEwing]

so near the top on the left, I see a " contact us " box, if you click that I believe if you fill in your info as new user, and then ask the question similiar to what i said about moving your post, they will be able to move it for you. The software has changed on this site since I was a regular and I have not found another way yet....follow this and then update me with your status...

 

[JLMac]

How do I do that?

You guys can just repost this in the Harry Ferguson forum, there's no problem leaving this here.

 

[Alex MacEwing]

janise, do you see the post from JLMac??

 

[Alex MacEwing]

I have just done a " REPORT " on Janice's first post regarding her tractor problem to see if the Moderator can move it over to the "Ferguson " site....Alex

 

[Alex MacEwing]

Thankyou for moving this....Alex

 

[pomester]

"won't turn over" - I take this to mean that the starter will not spin. Turn the key and nothing happens, right?

The charging system, voltage regulator/generator/wiring has nothing to do with energizing the starter. Let's just ignore that aspect right now. I see a 12v battery so we'll go from there.

The tractor originally used the gear shift to activate the starter. That has been bypassed on your tractor and a solenoid installed. When you turn the key to 'start' it should energize the solenoid sending current to the starter. Looking at the back of your ignition switch, I see only two wires connected. It should have a wire coming from 12v to the 'bat' terminal of the switch. It should have a wire from the 'st' to the solenoid. It should have a wire from the 'ign' to the coil. Note that different switches may have differing layouts.

Here's simple diagram.

You really need a continuity tester/test meter and trace the power to make sure 12v is getting where it is suppose to.

I see you replaced the ground cable, but your connection to the chassis is suspect, the area needs to be sandpapered clean to metal. The top terminal of your switch falls into the same category, looks quite corroded.

See if this can get you started, and come back with questions.

 

[Alex MacEwing]

pomester, Thanks for your response and suggestions.......Yes I have been active on this post the Lady with the problem is in Texas and I'm located near Toronto Ontario. I am familiar with the TEAs built in the UK and like you say, you use the gear shift and slot S to start the tractor.

Now this Lady has taken over using this tractor from another family member who is not available to assist. So she tells me that the tag under the steering wheel has TO-85196 Harry Ferguson, I believe it is probably a TO-30, built in or near Detroit Mi. She also offers that the last couple months they have had to charge the battery the day before they needed the tractor, which tells me its not charging the battery. I will also add that her tractor has the " S" gear selector position, but she is not aware of using the gear shift to start it. She tells me that she , checks the tractor is in Neutral, with the bucket down, turns the key, just like a car and the tractor starts up........Now recently her procedure was not working and some one told her to get a new battery, which she did, but after she replaced it , it does nothing I'm lead to believe from what she says.

Her first post was not on this site and because I'm not familiar with the TO-30, I asked to post this on YT. (As this tractor has the gear shift S position I believe it should be very similar to my TEAs i had, but by the picture she has supplied, I think the first place to start would be with some new wiring with proper crimp on spade lugs.

Now , you mentioned it appears to be a 12 Volt system, I thought the battery appeared to be a 6 volt and the operator manual calls out a 6 V, positive (+) ground. Now I am thinking maybe she pulled a wire off while changing the battery other than the main battery post wires, but by looking at her pictures some of those wires if not all of them should be replaced.
My TEAs had a fuse holder on the back of the ignition switch but I think for lights only?? have you seen behind the das of a TO-30??

I have also asked the Lady tonight to get a picture showing the top of the battery and record where the + and - cables are connected to..

I'm goin to let you digest this update, thks for your reply Alex

 

[pomester]

pomester, Thanks for your response and suggestions.......Yes I have been active on this post the Lady with the problem is in Texas and I'm located near Toronto Ontario. I am familiar with the TEAs built in the UK and like you say, you use the gear shift and slot S to start the tractor.

Now this Lady has taken over using this tractor from another family member who is not available to assist. So she tells me that the tag under the steering wheel has TO-85196 Harry Ferguson, I believe it is probably a TO-30, built in or near Detroit Mi. She also offers that the last couple months they have had to charge the battery the day before they needed the tractor, which tells me its not charging the battery. I will also add that her tractor has the " S" gear selector position, but she is not aware of using the gear shift to start it. She tells me that she , checks the tractor is in Neutral, with the bucket down, turns the key, just like a car and the tractor starts up........Now recently her procedure was not working and some one told her to get a new battery, which she did, but after she replaced it , it does nothing I'm lead to believe from what she says.

Her first post was not on this site and because I'm not familiar with the TO-30, I asked to post this on YT. (As this tractor has the gear shift S position I believe it should be very similar to my TEAs i had, but by the picture she has supplied, I think the first place to start would be with some new wiring with proper crimp on spade lugs.

Now , you mentioned it appears to be a 12 Volt system, I thought the battery appeared to be a 6 volt and the operator manual calls out a 6 V, positive (+) ground. Now I am thinking maybe she pulled a wire off while changing the battery other than the main battery post wires, but by looking at her pictures some of those wires if not all of them should be replaced.
My TEAs had a fuse holder on the back of the ignition switch but I think for lights only?? have you seen behind the das of a TO-30??

I have also asked the Lady tonight to get a picture showing the top of the battery and record where the + and - cables are connected to..

I'm goin to let you digest this update, thks for your reply Alex

I see a loose green wire sticking up between the battery and the dash - if it were working before, I'd look and see if that wire might have been knocked loose putting the new battery in place.

The tractor was originally 6v - likely the generator has not been converted to 12v (possible, but most conversions just bolt on an alternator). So it's not going to charge a 12v battery. I've got a friend with a TO20 who has never had an operating charging system, he just hooks it up to a trickle charger when parked. It'll run all day on the battery.

 

[Alex MacEwing]

Thanks, I will draw that to her attention and confirm which battery she is currently using. There is a lot of tiding up required with those twisted wires and rusting spots on connection points....

 

[Jim.ME]

Thanks, I will draw that to her attention and confirm which battery she is currently using. There is a lot of tiding up required with those twisted wires and rusting spots on connection points....

The picture is a 12-volt battery. The visible clamp on the battery cable is installed upside down, often a sign the clamp was originally on the positive post (larger than the negative post) and gets flipped over because it wouldn't tighten enough right-side up. The ground(?) cable attached to the dash panel behind the battery should be relocated to ground on the engine (starter mount bolt is good if possible).

The amount of corrosion on the key switch may be a sign of problems to come.

 

[Alex MacEwing]

Jim, thanks for your offerings and yes I agree with you and I have reached out to the Lady to address those items, I have asked her to take some pics of the top of the battery as well as ID which posts the cables connect to, as this tractor would have been + to ground from the factory and confuses folks that are used to modern day connections....

Jim, can you confirm if the generator pic, appears to be the original and or the same type?? I had 2 TEAs built in the UK, but have never seen a TO close up....thanks

 

[pomester]

Jim, thanks for your offerings and yes I agree with you and I have reached out to the Lady to address those items, I have asked her to take some pics of the top of the battery as well as ID which posts the cables connect to, as this tractor would have been + to ground from the factory and confuses folks that are used to modern day connections....

Jim, can you confirm if the generator pic, appears to be the original and or the same type?? I had 2 TEAs built in the UK, but have never seen a TO close up....thanks

It should be noted that neither the starter, generator, or ignition cares whether the ground is positive or negative. The ignition should be tweaked if polarity is changed by reversing the connections at the posts of the coil, and if switched from 6v to 12v the coil needs a ballast resister for long term operation, but it will start and run without without those tweaks. And of course a 6v generator will not charge a 12v battery, but it won't hurt anything for it to run. The starter should engage and the tractor should run even with a 6v to 12v battery swap and polarity reversal and no other changes.

 

[Alex MacEwing]

learn something new every day even at my age, I am used of reversing the rotation of a DC motor, ie in a snowmobile or a linear actuator to go from CW to CCW of the motor itself, by reversing the polarity at the battery.....

 

[Tom H.]

Good Morn to all. I am the one that brought Janise to this forum......
Been years since I posted on here. She has posted pictures on another forum and I am going to try to drag them over here.
She says the plate below the steering wheel , has TO-85196 on it. This leads me to believe this tractor is roughly a 1952 and was built in the Ferguson factory in or near Detroit Mi.
I'm very familiar with the TEA-20, built in the UK and serviced by John(UK)?? , I had a 1951 and a 1952, but I have Zero experience with the TO family. As I knew there were a lot of TO folks on here, I suggested she post on here....Alex

Hi Alex and Janise,

I have been a TO30 owner for 20+ years and have since bought and rebuilt at least 5 more which have been sold to others. Working on them can be fun and also frustrating. That being said, if you run a jumper cable from the battery to the starter will it turn over ( checking grounding and starter). Make sure in neutral first. I also noticed ground wire is on dash, get a longer “0” gauge wire and ground to bell housing. Check back with us.

Tom

 

[Alex MacEwing]

Tom, thanks for the input, as you have one of these TOs, can you comment on the generator, can you say its either an original or one of the same. I'm just trying to confirm what is original and what has been modified. What I know for certain is that my 51 & 52 TEAs where manufactured in the UK and arrived in Canada with 12 volt + ground. John (uk) confirmed that a few times. This T30 I believed shipped out of the Ferguson plant as a 6 volt system with + ground....can you comment??? Thanks Alex

 

[Alex MacEwing]

Janise , is dealing with nasty weather, tractor , trouble shooting is currently on hold......