205 Industrial Dies on Incline only

[jfharper]

Since I rebuilt the engine (ad3.152) this summer, I've experienced this issue when the tractor inclines probably at 30 degrees or more it will die. I've then become a master at fixing it where I'll raise the front of the fuel tank, loosen the two front injector lines, crank over a few times where fuel will start to shoot out (after 2 cranks roughly), then tighten, and the tractor will run again...until I incline it again.

This problem did not exist before I rebuilt the engine.

If I run the tractor on level ground, it will run for hours with no problem and does not stall.

I have about 80 hours so far on the new rebuild and this has been going on from the start, but I thought is was related to a faulty fuel pump. I've replaced the fuel pump with the bowl type and the problem still progresses...the problem existed with my old fuel pump (bowless) and with an additional new fuel pump (bowless) which I thought was causing the problem.

I also checked and replaced the tap and screen and it has not been clogged at all. I replaced the fuel line from the tap to the pump, as well as the line from the tap to the first primary glass bowl type filter. The bowl in the fuel pump shows no air bubbles. And there are no leaks in the entire system.

I've also tried bleeding the system periodically at the secondary bleed banjo fitting for air, but no air exists...just pure fuel. Then again at the lower bleed 5/16 wrench size screw on the CAV injector pump, as well as the top screw and both show good streams of pure fuel...no air whatsoever. I've done this a few times just to be sure, and no air, but I can still stall the tractor on incline.

I just realized yesterday that I believe the cause to be inclining the tractor going forward to around 30 degrees incline or more will cause it to stall/die...however, if I go up the same slope going backwards, the tractor does not die...or if I go down any slope going frontwards, the tractor does not die.

One thing I did replace is one of the ferrels (olives) on the fuel line going out of the CAV pump to the front injector because it was leaking there...the old one looked to be harder than brass, but I replaced with brass and this caused the leak to stop...I can't think using brass would cause this problem...in addition this problem existed before and after this fix.

So now I'm thinking it may be the CAV pump being worn...but I thought I would ask since maybe someone has experienced this incline only issue and may recognize the symptom for the problem. Thanks for any advice.

Another idea, just a shot in the dark, is either my valves are off (but I remember adjusting them properly at the start), or my CAV is turned (timed) just a hair off from what it was before the rebuild...even though I was sure to match the timing lines when putting the CAV pump back on.

 

[jfharper]

OK, today it died and was not on an incline.

I then proceeded to bleed at the injector lines, got it running...then it would die after 10 seconds.

Did this a few times and thought maybe the fuel pump is causing the problem, because if the CAV was weak there would not be squirts of fuel out the injector lines.

So I took the new bowl pump off, and put the old original bowless pump on...and it would run for about 2 minutes...then died.

So now I'm thinking maybe the cam lobe is so worn that whatever pump I try won't be able to create an adequate fuel back pressure for the CAV.

My Dad recommended putting an electric fuel pump on it, but I don't know what PSI to go with.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Oh, BTW, the fuel tank is about 3/4 full.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Could there be something in the fuel tank causing the problem? You could have a bad lift pump too. I think someone a while back had a new lift pump that didn't work. Dave

 

[Joe Ferguson]

Is it possible that the shut-off cable is kinked
or some loose at the pump lever causing the shut-
off valve at the pump to stay near to closed.

Do you have a continuous steady fuel flow "for
more than one minute" at the filters bleeding
ports if not.. the fuel tank filling cap air vent
may be blocked. If some water reached the injector
pump from condensation or for any reason some
components may be stuck by thin film of rust you
may try to put 1 quart of 2 cycle engine oil in
your 3/4 fuel tank to lubricate pump moving parts
..it worked succesfully for us few times. Due to
recent regulations the fuel composition changed
and have less lubrication properties.

Good luck !

Joe ferguson

 

[Jerry/MT]

There is either trapped air in your fuel delivey system that is released on an incline or an air leak in your fuel delivery system. There is also the possibility of something closing off the fuel supply in the tank when you incline the tractor ( broken tank baffle, blob of sludge, etc).
Do a very thorough job of bleeding the fuel delivery system from the tank through to the injection pump and make sure all the connections are in good condition and leakproof.

 

[Joe Ferguson]

Taking a walk outside before going to bed I remembered when I was young (many years ago) a mechanic came to repair our neigbour's tractor in the garage. The gas tank was removed and stored on
an old table in the garage. After reassembling the tractor they had similar symptoms as yours.

After multiple cheks and @#!%¨µð¢ they discovered a rag in the gas tank that was put in there by the kids.

Just a little story

Joe Ferguson

 

[jfharper]

(quoted from post at 18:48:43 01/12/11) Could there be something in the fuel tank causing the problem? You could have a bad lift pump too. I think someone a while back had a new lift pump that didn't work. Dave

I think that may have been me.

I emptied the tank twice before and nothing came out...also, if the tank had a clog, would there be air in the lift pump bowl? Because there is no air in the bowl.

I think I may have to pull the tank out, drain it and check if there is something in it.

 

[jfharper]

(quoted from post at 20:03:55 01/12/11)

Just a little story

Joe Ferguson

Funny. But maybe I should check.

 

[jfharper]

(quoted from post at 18:53:51 01/12/11) Is it possible that the shut-off cable is kinked
or some loose at the pump lever causing the shut-
off valve at the pump to stay near to closed.

Do you have a continuous steady fuel flow "for
more than one minute" at the filters bleeding
ports if not.. the fuel tank filling cap air vent
may be blocked. If some water reached the injector
pump from condensation or for any reason some
components may be stuck by thin film of rust you
may try to put 1 quart of 2 cycle engine oil in
your 3/4 fuel tank to lubricate pump moving parts
..it worked succesfully for us few times. Due to
recent regulations the fuel composition changed
and have less lubrication properties.

Good luck !

Joe ferguson

I'll check the continuous steady fuel flow for more than a minute.

I didn't know there was a filling cap air vent...I don't know where that is, but I'll see if I can locate it and check it out. I've never noticed the tank breathing in air when opening the cap...I would have noticed that vacuum if it was significant enough to notice.

Interesting about the 2 cycle oil...I have some, maybe I'll try that.

 

[jfharper]

(quoted from post at 19:17:30 01/12/11) There is either trapped air in your fuel delivey system that is released on an incline or an air leak in your fuel delivery system. There is also the possibility of something closing off the fuel supply in the tank when you incline the tractor ( broken tank baffle, blob of sludge, etc).
Do a very thorough job of bleeding the fuel delivery system from the tank through to the injection pump and make sure all the connections are in good condition and leakproof.

I'll do that...thanks.

 

[Jerry/MT]

Usually the blockage is not 100%. But it will not let enough fuel flow to keep the fuel delivery system full when the engine is running.

 

[jfharper]

OK, I figured I would start with removing the line after the lift pump to see if I got squirts...and I only got barely a drip. So it looks like my bowl lift pump is either not working or the cam lobe is worn. I checked this squirt when I first put this pump on and got a good squirt, so something has happened since I first put is on...obviously causing the tractor to die.

So I decided to put the other new lift pump on just to see if I got a squirt, and I did. This lift pump is new and bowless and is the pump I had trouble with before...the tractor ran horribly bad, with no power, and wouldn't pull a disc through the dirt...thus the reason I got the new bowl pump referenced above.

BUT, when I bought the bowl pump, I also bought a new tap, line from the tap to the pump, and line from the pump to the primary filter...when I ran tractor before with the bowless lift pump, it had old lines and tap...now it has new lines and tap and this pump is functioning well at the moment...when I test the squirt, I got really good squirt.

So my question is, maybe if my cam lobe wears out, or is almost worn down, perhaps going to an electric fuel pump may be a good thing. Since this will be a modification, I don't know what PSI I should put on...does anyone have a guess on what PSI I should go with for an electric fuel pump? TIA

 

[jfharper]

Well, I wrote the above message while I was warming up the tractor after just putting the new bowless pump on and bleeding the system thoroughly.

When I started the tractor is was running like a champ, then I wrote the message above and went out the tractor sounded horrible...it sounded like it did before, coughing, sputtering, almost like a misfire, so I shut it off and figured, phooey on the mechanical pump.

I thought to look in my manual, and low and behold their was a section in the engine part that showed the spec. for the fuel pump PSI which is 6-10 PSI. So I'm going to get an electric fuel pump and try that.

I know I can put a new cam in, but that is a lot of work.

I remember mic'ing the tappet lobes and they were in spec, but I don't remember seeing a spec for the lift pump lobe which could or could not be worn...but to put a cam in is a lot of work and an electric fuel pump is waaaaaay easier.

I'll let you all know how this works out.

 

[jfharper]

OK, I did a bit more work on this...here's what I did.

I removed the fuel tank, removed the tap over a clean bucket and let all 5 gallons out into the bucket. The fuel was completley clean and clear (red dyed clear).

I then looked into the tank and nothing was found...it was in good shape. I even picked the tank up and rotated it around, upside down and there was nothing moving inside except the float.

The tap was new with a new screen and this was in perfect shape...no dirt.

So, before I tried an electric fuel pump I ordered a fuel pressure tester to see what was going on. Remember, I have 3 mechanical fuel pumps. 1 old bowless, 1 new bowless, 1 new with bowl. Here is the history of the three pumps.

I mounted each pump, bled the system and took a reading with the gauge with the engine running...here are the results.

I mounted the old bowless and took a reading with engine running, there was no psi at all, there was no squirting but fuel will flow out, so my guess is this is running off gravity....maybe the valves inside the pump are open allowing gravity flow. The tractor will run for a while on this, but will die randomly, most times on incline or after pulling a heavy load for a short distance like running ripper teeth through 100 ft of hard pan dirt.

I mounted the new bowl pump and took a reading with engine running, no psi at all, no squirting with line removed...this is the pump that used to work well for a while, but then started dieing which started this whole problem.

I mounted the 1 new bowless pump and took a reading, 8 psi, which is good and within spec. At first the tractor will run well, BUT, after running for a while, the tractor will sputter and practically no power to pull an implement...this pump I bled for a week and still had air in the system....lots of air.

So is my diagnosis:
Old bowless pump, will run tractor off gravity, but when needs more fuel on load will stall...psi pressure is needed. Also, this pump will not squirt so my guess is the cam lobe is worn.

New bowl pump...this pump did squirt when I first got it a few months ago, but the metal lever that touches the cam lobe has always been cocked to one side (sort of bent...defect). I mounted it anyway to see if it would still function, and it did for a while. I got a good squirt and the tractor ran smooth and quiet for while...good power at low rpms, etc. My guess is this pump either failed internally, or my cam lobe is worn down.

New bowless pump...this pump still squirts well and has 8 psi reading, but it will not sustain the tractor's running for any period of time. My guess is this pump sucks in air somehow, or maybe the exit valve doesn't close well and there is some sort of air that accumulates somehow. The metal lever that touches the cam lobe on this pump seems to engage the diaphram earlier when compared to the new bowl pump...I did this test with my hands with these pumps removed.

So my guess is, the new bowless pump is causing air to come into the system and maybe defective, also this may not be the correct pump and may have the lever engage the lobe at a smaller height maybe for engines with later serial numbers...so it's either defective or the wrong pump.

The cam lobe may or may not be worn...I have no spec to go by, and no way of checking now that its in the engine.

The old bowless pump is probably worn and with no squirt may indicate a worn cam lobe.

The new bowl pump used to squirt well when I first got it. Since at first, I was getting a good squirt and after bleeding the system initially, I did not get any more air in the system like I did continuously with the new bowless pump, my guess is I don't have an air leak prior to the lift pump...because if I did, I would get air in the system with the new bowl pump like I did with the new bowless pump. BUT, after a while this pump either failed, or wore the cam lobe down to the point where it does not engage the cam lobe.

So my options are to either get a new bowl pump and see if this works...but if I mount it and get no squirt, then either the cam lobe is worn or I again got a faulty pump...I'm pretty much done with these aftermarket mechanical pumps.

Or get a genuine lift pump, but again if the cam lobe is worn, I've lost out.

Or I buy an electric pump, mount it between the two filters, that way the 10 micron primary filter will help keep stuff from entering the pump, and if it generates any debris the second 10 micro filter should catch it before it enters the CAV...only gamble is sometimes electric pumps die too.

What do you think I should do? Sorry for the long read.

 

[jfharper]

OK, I decided to buy an electric fuel pump and mount since I wasn't sure if the cam lobe was worn or not.

I bought a Delphi pump rated at 5.7 - 8.7 psi, spec was 6-10...I mounted a toggle switch so I could run the pump with the engine off for bleeding purposes, then also ran the lead to the oil pressure switch which turns on and off when engine is running or not.

I installed all this and bled the system with the toggle switch, then ran the tractor...it ran bad...took a long time to get up to normal rpm, slow throttle response, low power and blew black smoke out the tail pipe.

I also took a pressure reading with a gauge and the fuel pressure was between 8-9psi.

So, then I thought, OK the tractor ran better with the old fuel pump which ran with 0 psi, pretty much at gravity...and ran bad with the bowless lift pump and electrical fuel pump which produced higher psi.

So the problem with the 0 psi pump is it would die...what it I reduced the psi down to say 4.5, or 2-3, would it run better and have enough psi so as not to die? Maybe.

So I bought a fuel pressure regulator and installed it. The regulator came factory set to 2.7 psi, and on my gauge it read about 2.3 psi. I started the tractor and it ran better, still a small amount of black smoke, the throttle was responsive, but not top notch, but good enough.

So I worked the tractor for an hour or so, going up inclines, and such and it did not die...it didn't feel like it had full power, but the power was enough...like it would bog in spots where I knew it could handle...so I simply lightened the load a bit to get by.

I asked a diesel guy in town and he said black smoke is either too much fuel or not enough air...check the intake, oil bath, etc for rats or restrictions...I did and no such restrictions.

He also said, remove the hose and see how it runs because he's seen the screens so clogged before they would choke all air...I remove the hose and it ran about the same as with the hose on.

So he said, the injectors usually don't go out, and if I've checked the intake and just rebuilt the engine, then the problem could be the CAV injection pump, which is why I went in there in the first place was to see if they rebuild them.

He said this is an odd situation, but he said it could be the cam thing inside the CAV or something else...maybe a plunger? I can't remember what he said.

So, at least I can run the tractor for while. I'm going to read the CAV manual I download before and see if I can't figure something out.

It's a funny thing, when there is proper fuel back pressure, the engine blows lots of black smoke, but when the fuel back pressure is reduced, it runs better...maybe there is a spring or plunger or something that is worn or old and weak inside the CAV that is allowing fuel to constantly go thru the lines at higher psi. I don't know.