Tractor brands treated as a religion!!!

[JDseller]

When I posted on ericlb Kubota problem I was using sarcasm about how many on here almost worship Kubota tractors. Are they a good tractor?? Yes. Just about every major brand today has a pretty good tractors. There really is very little different in the design of them. I have driven and used Kubota tractors. They are not any better or worst than just about any of the main line tractor brands today. Same issue that many smaller brands have: few dealers and longer parts times.

Kubota just started to have their tractors tested by the Nebraska Test facility in the last 10-15 years. I often wondered why they would not have their tractors tested. The fees involves are not that high for a major corporation.

In the Mid 1980s we checked a few against JD, CIH and Ford tractors on our Dynometer. We used all new tractors that several local dealers had together to see how they stacked up. We had mechanics from all four brands there, including Kubota. We had picked 50-60 hp tractors to try and keep the test as even as possible. The Ford tested best at over its rated PTO hp. The JD and CIH where next at a tie with just at their rated pto hp. The Kubota was last at 15% under it's rated hp. We went an got an advertisement with the specifications in it. In the fine print ,that we had to get a magnifying glass to read, it stated that the advertised hp was engine gross hp on the Kubota not the pto hp. It did have the pto hp listed in another section that was real hard to find. The Kubota was 5% short of that hp and the engine RPM was way higher than the other brands to get there. So I always felt that they where misleading people the way they where advertising their tractors. Now realize that at this time they had only been in the US market a few years. They are doing better now. Just they where one of the first to use gross hp.

I really dislike how most of the tractors are advertised today. They just about all use gross engine hp. Which is a useless number because you can't use that for anything. Any tractor is going to have less hp at the wheels or pto than this gross hp number.

As for why different brand have stood the test of time better than others? Many have been managed corporately better than others. An example of that would be Oliver. They always had a well designed tractor and implement line but foundered management wise. The when White bought them that cooperate management was even worst. So they fell by the way side.

As for the brands I support. I grew up using mostly JD equipment. I started farming with Ford tractors. My first modern tractor was a Ford 6000. (First owned was a JD "G") I really did not have much trouble with the tractor. I did have major troubles with the company. When this tractor was less then ten years old many of the parts where already obsoleted. This was back in the early 1970s when not many dealerships had hose machines. I blew a power steering line and Ford could no longer get it. Then over the next few years it just kept getting worst. More and more stuff dropped. Then the biggest turn off was the time it took to get parts. Ford would take three days at the best, if you paid extra. I had IH equipment and JD equipment and if I paid extra for the parts from them I could get them the next day. So I switched away from having any Ford tractors to farm with. I do collect a few but I sure don't depend on them to make a living with. Mainly because of parts availablity.

As for the problems with JD company and it dealership network. I think they are being mis-managed right now. It is easy to ride the top when grain prises are sky high and the BTO are lording their big money around. When that stops, and we all know it will, can a dealership chain survive when they have 5, 10, or 20 stores that start to lose money??? I think that they will not make it. Ten stores that are local owned with individuals owning them will have much more of a rainy day fund to get by on than some big chain.

Plus the big chains do not do customer service very well either. When everyone is just an "employee" then not many will go beyond just enough to get by on. I just had an issue this last week with a big chain dealership. I called them to buy a corn planter they had. This was several states away. Straight out, no trade, cash deal. When you call their phone number you get some recorded voice menu. It took me four minutes to get to a person that then put me on hold for two more minutes. I hung up at that time. I had not called during lunch either. I even asked the person I did talk to to just take a message and give it to some one to call me back when they where not as busy. Not going to happen. So I bought a planter for just a little more that was closer anyway. I did fax the sales manager at the store I had been on hold with, a copy of the purchase order of the planter I did buy. He called me up in about ten minutes to ask me why I had sent him a purchase order from another store/state. I told him I wanted him to see that I was not just kicking tires on buying a planter and that his store had lost a cash sale because of them being too cheap to hire someone to answer the phone and take messages. He told me he got complaints each week on the phone system by he could not get it changed.

So I will stop here. The fact of the matter is that good dealers are the hard thing to find any more. It does not matter what brand you have. Also those that bad mouth the top brands usually don't give all of the facts. JD and CIH are the top brands on larger tractors and combines in North America. Agco is trying but is not there yet. I think Kubota is tops in the compact market. Ford and MF/Agco are in a close race in the utility market. So they all have their place.

Have a Good Sunday!!!

 

[rrlund]

I have to agree with you on a whole lot of what you said. I don't know about the Kubota worship,don't see it here locally. I do know without a doubt though that if you dare say one bad word about Deere,whether it's a product that they make,ever have made,the management of the company,management of any of the dealerships or even the truth about old John Deere himself,you'd better be wearing your asbestos underwear if the wrong worshiper at the alter of the Deere hears you.
As far as the new dealer situation,I understand that what they're doing is a business decision,to "position themselves for the future". It makes sense to me. The days of having a dealership in every town,each selling 5-10 new tractors a year are long gone and are never coming back. I understand too that their business model doesn't include servicing my needs anymore. The super stores here are there to serve two kinds of customers,lawn and garden and the million dollar a year "buy new every two" crowd,or should I say "few". The parts department is there to sell maintainence parts for that new equipment and parts for lawn and garden. Like I've said before,I was all Deere once. I accept where they've taken the company. It's others who can't because of their worchip of the brand and the belief that they can do no wrong. I've moved on,found a good little hometown family run Agco dealer that fits my needs and personality to a T. I'll tell you the truth,it took a good two years to loose the craving to go back to Deere,it was in my blood,but anybody who thinks you can't farm without it is just plain wrong.
One thing that cracks me up is the denial that some folks show when you mention that a lot of curent Deere models are rebadged foreign tractors. They can't see beyond the paint to admit the truth.
As far as Oliver,yes,when White took over,the first department to suffer was R&D. White milked their existing product line for a cash cow until the whole line was obsolete. It's a darned shame too.
Back to the Deere super stores,you bet some chains are going to hit the skids one of these days. These college boys who are making the decisions at the top don't know hard times in ag,but as you and I both know,it's cyclical and things will crash. What's going to happen when they do? Simple,they'll be company stores,and if you think customer service doesn't exist at some of them now,just wait til that happens.

 

[NY 986]

Good commentary. You are not alone in your experience with Ford in the 1970's. The gray and red tractors never sold here but about 1970 to 1975 there was a 6000 and two 8000's in the neighborhood. The 6000 and one 8000 were gone by 1976 because of the issues you cited. The other 8000 stayed because it was that farmer's baby that moldboarded 40 acres a year and chopped 10 acres of corn which is to say it did not see much use. That farmer still has that tractor and I don't think it has 4000 hours on it today.
There is more dealer competition for Deere here so each outfit tends to work harder for business. Case IH is done by a multi-location dealer as is New Holland with that New Holland multi having Case IH at one location. Both lag the Deere dealers IMO on customer relations.

 

[Bill(Wis)]

Your statement that Kubota just started having their tractors tested at Nebraska in the last 10-15 years is an absolute contradiction to actual facts. Kubota used to "religiously" test their tractors at Nebraska, the first test being conducted in August of 1965. (test #906) Although that test involved little more that a "garden tractor" by USA standards, that was about all that Kubota built at the time. Following that test, Kubota tested no less than 21 different models either at Nebraska or at the test facility in Japan which met all of the Nebraska requirements and was signed off by Nebraska involving HP ratings exceeding 100. (M120 =102.3 PTO HP @2211 RPM tested in May of 1999) The problem that Kubota came to realize was that the so-called "Nebraska Test" was required for new tractors to be sold within the state of Nebraska. After approximately 34 years of paying a lot of $$$$ for these tests, Kubota was seeing practically no sales of its farm tractors in Nebraska. Nebraska farmers were buying Red, Green and Blue, period. Kubota elected to opt out of this costly venture which was gaining them nothing. Nebraska test labs spent a lot of time trying to convince them to return to the test track and they finally have and their tractors do quite well. In my case, they are supported by no less than 6 dealers within 20 miles and almost every medium sized tractor used in construction, landscaping, grounds maintenance, etc. is a Kubota. Not so many larger farm tractors, most of them are Red followed by blue and green. (In my area).

 

[wisbaker]

As I get older my opinions about a lot of things change. Back when I was young and in college I thought marketing people were a waste of air, an attitude further ingrained by the business manager where I worked. (when I asked him what his daughter was studying at college he said "marketing", and then explained when he was in college and you didn't know what you wanted to do you were a abundant arts major, marketing he said is right next door) But now I see so many companies and even municipalities being mismanaged by MBA's, these are individuals that can't understand (mostly because they can't put a number on it) about cost of sale, cost of lost opportunity and customer service levels. They want to minimize costs but can't understand the relationship between service levels, marketing costs and level of sales. Or to put it another way they can't understand a 10% reduction in costs may lead to a 25% reduction in sales unless you pass some or most of the cost reduction on to the customer. They can't understand that in large ticket items (like cars, trucks, tractors and some outdoor equipment) that the value the customer receives is not entirely in the product purchased, they purchase the product to get use or utility from it and to get maximum utility form their purchase may require some input of service at the retail level. The earlier post about the guy who could not get a person on the phone to make a purchase, this dealer has adjusted their service level down, they are now approaching box box retail levels, to be successful at that level of service it becomes entirely a price issue. If you want to provide a Wal-Mart level of service be prepared to offer a Wal-Mart price or loose market share to Wal-Mart

 

[Tech 7]

I am suspicious of some of the models but curious as to which ones you believe to be rebadged, Bob

 

[rrlund]

Yanmar for one. The serial tag even says Yanmar not Deere.
Then there are the ones made in Italy by the company that used to be called SAME,now they're something that starts with an A,can't remember the name right now,I don't speak Italian.
The ones made in India,don't know. Germany,as far as I know Deere owns or did own that factory,but still not American made. Brazil and Mexico? Don't know,might be Deere owned factories like the one in Mannheim,but you asked for re badged and I gave you Yanmar and SAME.

Do I need to put on my asbestos underwear now? I've got a hunch we're about to get a taste of the whole point of this post, "brands treated as a religion".

 

[730d se]

Great, high quality, well designed products sell themselves. For the others, they use creative marketing to ingrain a perception that is seldom if ever achieved.

 

[Animal]

Deere puy alot of dealerships out of the game in the fifties, and they can do it again.

 

[olliekid]

nice post. I think you hit all the key points. Brands are like religion because we all have such strong pride and loyalty towards our brands.

The perceptions of kubota's on this cite is a little through the roof sometimes but I think all brands have that at times. We all take pride in what we have.

As far as dealership goes, just having good service is everything. I swear if a dealer near me just was decent and ordered parts the day the farmer called they'd be very successful. Luckily, there are some within 2 hours so I go there for parts.

Also I'll add that it is terribly sad that White had such poor management, marketing, and business skills in general. Oliver made a bad decision in the 1st place in being sold to White. I love White tractors, but they had some of the poorest management, marketing, and overall business skills in the market.

 

[samn40]

Deere have used heavy marketing tactics in Europe to get a strong foothold especially when Massey Ferguson ,Claas, Fendt, Valtra and Challenger were being bought up by Agco and then there was the Case /Ford/NH merger and in Italy the Same, Deutz, Fahr, Lamborghini and Hurliman became SDF and then Landini started the McCormick range based on the old Internationals. Deere used a slogan/marketing tactic to ensure farmers that they still belonged to the same Company that had its roots in the small Blacksmith shop, So there was certainty in the product. They also hit it at the right time with the reliable 10 series tractors and thus got a real good foothold,sadly the product has been on a downward slope since as far as reliability is concerned,BUT it is still selling due mainly to some sort of religious belief that it is the product to be seen with, plus the marketing people have made everything green and yellow and brainwashed our youth into this way of thinking.
No matter how popular any of these brands of tractors are in any given area, Massey Ferguson still makes over half of the new tractors sold in the world today(outside Russia) and it has been this way for over 30 years now. This leaves everyone else to make the other half!!
I say outside Russia...A few years back the largest producer of tractors in the World was Belarus, not sure if it still that way but would you want to own one? .......Maybe it is because the dealers are too far apart to make them popular!!!!!!!!
Sam

 

[pat sublett]

I never had a problem with either Kubota or Deere dealers. I just know that I have a Kubota and bought a new Deere industrial and if I had it to do over I would have bought a Kubota.

 

[NCWayne]

To take everything you said about farm equipment a bit further, you ought to get into the construction equipment side of things. To think about it, this whole situatuion applies to farm equipment also as the Yanmar/Deere tractors clearly show. What I'm getting at is that nowdays it's often hard to figure out exactly who is building the machine/engine/component on any given brand. CAT owns Perkins and many Perkins engines are branded as CAT's. In the excavator market many Hitachi and Deere machines are identical. Used to be some Komatsu and CAT forklifts were identical, or so I was told.

Then, after you figure out who actually made the machine, as a whole, you can usually break the machine down into it's various components which are made by a variety of other mfgs. Transmissions made by Dana/Spincer/Clark/Hurst (yep, all owned by one main mfg now). Axels made by ZF, Dana, etc, etc, etc. Engines made by Perkins/CAT, Komatsu branded Cummins', CAT branded Mitsubishi's etc, etc, etc.

Basically nowdays when you buy anything equipment related it's a real crapshoot as to what your actually getting. Granted this situation has been around for a long time to some degree but over the past ten years or so it has gotten really bad. But that's just what I've seen being out there every day, for what it's worth.

 

[johnwayne360]

Id flame you, but I happen to agree with you, and our circumstances are eerily familiar..

 

[northvale]

The Deere dealer near me has alot of used stuff but the sales guy was always looking for top dollar. I've bought a 4020 there, and that's all in 20 years, besides parts. And I own 3 Deere tractors and on my 3rd & 4th Deere balers. So I like green, but not their attention.

 

[JDseller]

Bill it all depends on where you are at in WI. We deliver gluten feed to about twenty-five dairies in WI. About 12-13 are JD, 8-9 are CIH, One is Ford, One Agco, and one runs all different brands.
The value of equipment is many times in the owner's own eye. I have found that the total cost of ownership is much better on JD and CIH. That being: purchase price + operating cost (real parts and fuel cost)- trade-in/resale value.

 

[jm.]

Well I like to read this post..JDseller covered a lot of it well. I have made a living selling KUBOTAS for over 28 years. As all compaines they have their good and bad. One thing about it of all the come on,s they have pretty well made it over the hump. In Tennessee last year sales of under 100 hp Kubota had 38% of the total market. Pretty strong market share. I Like jdseller do think that deers,s move to have large regional dealerships may come back to haunt them some day.

 

[buickanddeere]

Most owners of 10 Through 55 series Deere utility tractors have no idea some until the mid 40 series and all afterwards are German and French. India does allow imports unless extreme duties and fees are paid. Hence any manufacture that want,s into that huge market has to set up a factory inside India. Deere isn't going to build a duplicate factory in the US when it's cheaper to bulk freight tractors from India to North America? Why should Deere build sugar cane harvesters in the US when the bulk of the market is in Brazil? As for Yanmar and Hitachi? How do you think Deere is going to crack into sales where any sort of Japanese land, ownership or influence exists?Some folk seem awful surprised when they find out the world does not revolve around the US.

 

[David G]

I have at least one of every color, no religion here.

 

[onefarmer]

We have called our place "Ancestorfarms" since more than one place is a centennial farm. But I'd like to call it "Colorblind Acres" with a subtitle of "If it runs it is used"

We have a Ford 9n, many Farmall, JD, MF, MH, and AC.

 

[Anonymous-0]

One of the biggest selling features for JD excavators, actually 99% of all full size excavators, is that they are built around a Japanese designed and/or built platform. Some Japanese brands sell very well on their own merits, like Hitachi, but a lot of people know nothing about machines like Sumitomo. Cat, Link belt and Case do as their excavtors are Sumitomo platforms. In actual fact it's an easy way to get into the N. American market. Change the engine and a few other minor things and you've now got a Cat or JD machine, etc. It's clever branding and marketing for both parties.

 

[Bill(Wis)]

You are correct. That's why I stated: "In my area". I drive a lot through areas of the midwest where I will see one color for miles and miles and then the color will change. When I was a kid we had all the colors within just a few miles. Most of them were right on Main Street. That all changed and the dealers moved out of town for the most part and put up big places on the outskirts or out in the country. There was some color changing due to that. One big farmer that had always bought JD switched to Ford just because JD was no longer close by.

 

[4020deereboy]

i have a john deere dealer 30 miles from my house that i wouldnt step foot in again if my life depended on it but i still cant see myself goin fagco luckily most of my stuff is old enough i could go aftermarket but luckily my deere dealer stocks anything i need and my new holland dealer is purdy good to and anything they dont have they can usually get next day. i dont think anybody makes there own compact tractors i know new holland or massey dont make there own